RE: Migrating VMware instances
"Schaad,John G - TOC" <jgschaad-BA9cS41/[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.linux.cluster.openmosix.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
Here is some background on what we were trying to do with VMware on our openMosix cluster: We were wanting to run a "Windows-only" program called PowerWorld Simulator(PWS) on the openMosix cluster. Some preliminary testing showed that it was possible to use VMware to do this. It was possible to do a VMware installation, along with a version of Windows and the PWS program, and it would work. However, there were some drawbacks. First, there was no migration of either processes or instances of the program or VMware itself, due to the nature of VMware as noted by Moshe, below. Second, this would require separate, multiple installations of VMware/Windows/PWS, on multiple nodes, along with the high cost of those multiple licenses. Attempts to put together a multi-user VMware/Windows-Server2000 setup did not work either, because of the multiple layers of user accounts required in both the Windows environment and the openMosix cluster, and getting it to work properly with Windows Terminal Server. We were using the Hummingbird Exceed X-server software on the Windows client user PC's, to access the cluster over the network. Third, the main user interface for PWS is graphical, point-and-click. It was basically useless over our 10BaseT User LAN, due to mouse latency, etc. PWS does have a limited batch processing mode, but it starts out by using a graphical point & click method to start it. A student working with me developed a separate method for using this batching facility of PWS, based on the use of the Cygwin "unix-type" operating environment on Windows, and both a command line interface and a fairly simple QT-based graphical menu system interface. This method shows some promise for at least making it possible to run some batch-type studies with PWS on multiple Windows nodes, and possibly with multiple Windows installations on VMware or Win4Lin. Fourth, the layers of system overhead between Windows, VMware, and openMosix on the cluster makes this combination very slow, even running from the admin terminal at the cluster itself. Fifth, the way VMware is designed, it requires a special kernel (see the information available on our FTP site, as described in the earlier posts). So, if you upgrade the linux/openMosix kernel, you have to recompile VMware on the new kernel, and you have to make sure the new kernel can work with VMware. So, you would have to do that on every cluster node, and on every VMware installation. I have found the Win4Lin is much easier to use compared to VMware in this aspect, because Win4Lin does not require the special kernel. It just works! Win4Lin also does have a similar performance problem (especially if you use XP instead of Window 2000 on Win4Lin), as described in the fourth item, above, but at least it does not require recompiling. -----Original Message----- From: openmosix-general-admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org [mailto:openmosix-general-admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org]On Behalf Of openmosix-general-request-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:18 PM To: openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org Subject: openMosix-general digest, Vol 1 #1563 - 6 msgs Send openMosix-general mailing list submissions to openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to openmosix-general-request-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org You can reach the person managing the list at openmosix-general-admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of openMosix-general digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Migrating VMware instances (Dave Pippenger) 2. RE: Migrating VMware instances (Dirk Eddelbuettel) 3. Re: Migrating VMware instances (Moshe Bar) 4. Re: Migrating VMware instances (Dirk Eddelbuettel) 5. Re: Migrating VMware instances (Moshe Bar) 6. Re: Migrating VMware instances ([email protected]) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:50:47 -0800 (PST) From: Dave Pippenger <[email protected]> To: Moshe Bar <moshe-ay74M1d3r6RWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> cc: openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org Subject: RE: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances The FAQ should be updated to reflect this... It pretty much indicates the opposite and it lead me down a dead end with OM. Putting OM on Xen accomplishes a different goal than I was attempting. My interest was in having an SSI that I could use to slice out virtual independant system images not virtualize the hardware for the SSI. I'm going to take your comment as gospel on the subject and move on to other software. Dave Pippenger On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Moshe Bar wrote: > I would think it's next to impossible to migrate vmware instances simply > because of Vmware's architecture. Vmware scans the exucutable VM pages of > the virtual machine ahead of execution and replaces call to ring 0 of the > CPU with system calls and pointers to it's own software. I doubt if a Vmware > machine would be able to run on the remote node after migration. > > It's a much better approach to have openMosix run inside Xen virtual > machines and migrate those around when required. > > Moshe > > -----Original Message----- > From: openmosix-general-admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org > [mailto:openmosix-general-admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Pippenger > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 1:35 PM > To: openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org > Subject: RE: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances > > > I would only be curious if you had any level of success having vmware > instances migrate on an OM cluster. I'm going to install your srpms later > today on my dev cluster, but if you can tell me it's not going to get me > what I want I won't bother. > > Dave Pippenger > > > On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Schaad,John G - TOC wrote: > >> Bruce, >> Yes, that is it. Let me know if you have any questions about it. >> --John >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bruce Knox [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:42 AM >> To: Schaad,John G - TOC >> Cc: openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org >> Subject: RE: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances >> >> >> John, I just followed the directories (with some guessing) and found: >> ftp://ftp.bpa.gov/pub/software/openMosix/ >> There are several VMware HowTo documents:) Bruce >> >>>>> "Schaad,John G - TOC" <jgschaad-BA9cS41/[email protected]> 1/12/2006 11:27:22 AM >>> >> Hi, Bruce, >> >> I believe that information is still available on our External FTP Site. > However, we can no longer access it from our Internal Network. I will have > to go home to check it out. I do know that the directory structure on it > was re-arranged not too long ago, so the ftp link below would no longer be > correct. >> >> I will go home later today to check it, and then come back and "reply to > all" with the information. >> >> If for some reason that no longer works, I will try to find another way to > get the information out and available to everyone. >> >> Best Wishes, >> --John >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bruce Knox [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 6:32 AM >> To: openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org; Dave Pippenger >> Cc: Schaad,John G - TOC >> Subject: Re: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances >> >> >> Dave, John Schaad is jgschaad at bpa.gov Bruce >> >>>>> Dave Pippenger <[email protected]> 1/11/2006 9:56 PM >>> >> >> In my searches for an answer I turned up this old post >> >> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=9719541 >> >> It refers to a magical ftp site that no longer seems to have the >> advertised content. The poster was not the creator of the content and >> the email address protection prevents me from asking the poster if he >> still has the content. So does anyone have a copy of the howto docs >> and custom source that used to live at >> >> ftp://ftp.bpa.gov/downloads/software/openMosix/ >> >> Dave Pippenger >> >> >> On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Dave Pippenger wrote: >> >>> >>> If anyone is curious about my reasoning for wanting to do this, I >>> have a number of dev systems running on VMs. Each server uses >>> different levels of CPU at any given time depending on the >>> development cycle of each group. It ends up being a very large pain >>> to manage 100 or so of these VMs spread across 30 dual proc boxes and >>> keep two people from butting heads with the cpu on a given box. OM >>> seemed to be a pretty good answer to my issue allowing me to just >>> provision everyone on the master node and have OM deal with the >>> cpu/memory distribution. My VMs are all linux, so I'm not tied to >>> VMware if anyone knows of another project that works well with OM. I >>> didn't see any interesting hints that bochs or plex86 would work, and I > know due to kernel hooks UML is pretty much not an option. >>> >>> The FAQ and vague reports from other users on the list running VMware >>> under OM is what inspired me to believe it was a workable setup. >>> >>> Dave Pippenger >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Dave, >>>> >>>> On 5 January 2006 at 14:05, Dave Pippenger wrote: >>>> | I read through the FAQ and came across the entry for VMware that >>>> | indicated openmosix owuld load balance several instances of >>>> | VMware. When I tried to do this using vmware-gsx I was faced >>>> | with the VMware processes being locked on the home node with >>>> | these flags (monkey, mmap_dev, clone_vm, direct_io). I tried >>>> | altering the VM config by removing devices like floppy that >>>> | could have lead to locking, but in the end I was unable to get any >>>> | level of success. >>>> | >>>> | I'm running a 2.4.27 based om kernel using the migshm patches. My >>>> | VMware is somewhat dated being version 3.1.0 but I have seen no >>>> | indication of a particular version that was better at migration >>>> | than any other. If anyone who has had positive experience with >>>> | this could let me know what kind of config they were using it >>>> | would be of great assistance. >>>> >>>> I can't offer much help. I tried something similar recently using >>>> the newer VMware Player, but didn't get the 2.4.27 oM kernel to >>>> migrate processes between the two instances I was running. I >>>> posted a few notes on the quantian-general list about that. >>>> >>>> So if anybody has pointers or leads on openMosix inside VMware, I'd >>>> like to hear them too. >>>> >>>> Regards, Dirk >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. >>>> -- Thomas A. >>>> Edison >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------- >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through >>> log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine >>> that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. > DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! >>> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click >>> _______________________________________________ >>> openMosix-general mailing list >>> openMosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log >> files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that >> makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD > SPLUNK! >> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click >> _______________________________________________ >> openMosix-general mailing list >> openMosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log >> files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that >> makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD > SPLUNK! >> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click >> _______________________________________________ >> openMosix-general mailing list >> openMosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > _______________________________________________ > openMosix-general mailing list > openMosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general > > --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:29:51 -0600 To: <moshe-ay74M1d3r6RWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> Cc: "'Dave Pippenger'" <[email protected]>, <openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> Subject: RE: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances From: Dirk Eddelbuettel <[email protected]> On 12 January 2006 at 13:44, Moshe Bar wrote: | I would think it's next to impossible to migrate vmware instances simply | because of Vmware's architecture. Vmware scans the exucutable VM pages = | of | the virtual machine ahead of execution and replaces call to ring 0 of = | the | CPU with system calls and pointers to it's own software. I doubt if a = | Vmware | machine would be able to run on the remote node after migration.=20 Any thoughts on my recent question on having vmware run a 'guest' of linux with oM and participate in an existing oM cluster at the 'host' linux level? In other words, can instances of vmware containing sessions that migrate? Dirk -- Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. -- Thomas A. Edison --__--__-- Message: 3 Cc: "'Dave Pippenger'" <[email protected]>, <openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> From: Moshe Bar <moshe-ay74M1d3r6RWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> Subject: Re: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:35:26 -0600 To: Dirk Eddelbuettel <[email protected]> Yes, that would work, Dirk. But what would the benefit of that be? openMosix is used for HPC applications, and VMware eats about 25-45% of the CPU's cycles. I think it would make much more sense with Xen, since Xen can also relocate running virtual machines. It also provides transparent checkpointing which is kind of nice for HPC. Moshe On Jan 12, 2006, at 2:29 PM, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote: > > On 12 January 2006 at 13:44, Moshe Bar wrote: > | I would think it's next to impossible to migrate vmware instances > simply > | because of Vmware's architecture. Vmware scans the exucutable VM > pages = > | of > | the virtual machine ahead of execution and replaces call to ring > 0 of = > | the > | CPU with system calls and pointers to it's own software. I doubt > if a = > | Vmware > | machine would be able to run on the remote node after migration.=20 > > Any thoughts on my recent question on having vmware run a 'guest' > of linux > with oM and participate in an existing oM cluster at the 'host' > linux level? > In other words, can instances of vmware containing sessions that > migrate? > > Dirk > > -- > Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. > -- Thomas A. Edison > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through > log files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD > SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > _______________________________________________ > openMosix-general mailing list > openMosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general > --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:57:21 -0600 To: Moshe Bar <moshe-ay74M1d3r6RWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> Cc: Dirk Eddelbuettel <[email protected]>, "'Dave Pippenger'" <[email protected]>, <openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> Subject: Re: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances From: Dirk Eddelbuettel <[email protected]> On 12 January 2006 at 14:35, Moshe Bar wrote: | Yes, that would work, Dirk. But what would the benefit of that be? | openMosix is used for HPC applications, and VMware eats about 25-45% | of the CPU's cycles. Testing, primarily. I have seen it work somewhat with the VMware Player -- openmosixview essentially show some external machines flicker on and off under load. Probably tuneable. | I think it would make much more sense with Xen, since Xen can also | relocate running virtual machines. It also provides transparent | checkpointing which is kind of nice for HPC. Yes, but no Xen in Knoppix and Quantian yet ... Dirk -- Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. -- Thomas A. Edison --__--__-- Message: 5 Cc: "'Dave Pippenger'" <[email protected]>, <openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org> From: Moshe Bar <moshe-ay74M1d3r6RWk0Htik3J/[email protected]> Subject: Re: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:01:33 -0600 To: Dirk Eddelbuettel <[email protected]> > We should definetely work towards that integration in Quantian / ClusterKnoppix Moshe > Yes, but no Xen in Knoppix and Quantian yet ... > > Dirk > > -- > Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. > -- Thomas A. Edison > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through > log files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD > SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > _______________________________________________ > openMosix-general mailing list > openMosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general > --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:52:53 -0800 (PST) From: [email protected] To: Trevor Warren <[email protected]> Cc: openmosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org Subject: Re: [openMosix-general] Migrating VMware instances On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Trevor Warren wrote: > Hey Guys, > > At work we areplaying around with quite a few virtualised environments. I > should admit that our benchmarks have prooven that Vmware has huge > performance overheads and is an overkill for critical-cpu_io intensive > applications. But the vmware suite of tools is the most complete as compared > to other vendors. QEMU supports tun/tap for solid network support and since it will run in userland (w/o the accelerator), it may migrate on an openmosix cluster. Can someone see if they can boot a few linux floppy images or something and migrate them? -Eric > On 1/12/06, Dave Pippenger <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > In my searches for an answer I turned up this old post > > > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=9719541 > > > > It refers to a magical ftp site that no longer seems to have the > > advertised content. The poster was not the creator of the content and the > > email address protection prevents me from asking the poster if he still > > has the content. So does anyone have a copy of the howto docs and custom > > source that used to live at > > > > ftp://ftp.bpa.gov/downloads/software/openMosix/ > > > > Dave Pippenger > > > > > > On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Dave Pippenger wrote: > > > > > > > > If anyone is curious about my reasoning for wanting to do this, I have a > > > number of dev systems running on VMs. Each server uses different levels > > of > > > CPU at any given time depending on the development cycle of each group. > > It > > > ends up being a very large pain to manage 100 or so of these VMs spread > > > across 30 dual proc boxes and keep two people from butting heads with > > the cpu > > > on a given box. OM seemed to be a pretty good answer to my issue > > allowing me > > > to just provision everyone on the master node and have OM > > > deal with the cpu/memory distribution. My VMs are all linux, so I'm not > > tied > > > to VMware if anyone knows of another project that works well with OM. I > > > didn't see any interesting hints that bochs or plex86 would work, and I > > know > > > due to kernel hooks UML is pretty much not an option. > > > > > > The FAQ and vague reports from other users on the list running VMware > > under > > > OM is what inspired me to believe it was a workable setup. > > > > > > Dave Pippenger > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> Dave, > > >> > > >> On 5 January 2006 at 14:05, Dave Pippenger wrote: > > >> | I read through the FAQ and came across the entry for VMware that > > >> | indicated > > >> | openmosix owuld load balance several instances of VMware. When I > > tried > > >> | to > > >> | do this using vmware-gsx I was faced with the VMware processes being > > >> | locked on the home node with these flags (monkey, mmap_dev, > > clone_vm, > > >> | direct_io). I tried altering the VM config by removing devices like > > >> | floppy > > >> | that could have lead to locking, but in the end I was unable to get > > any > > >> | level of success. > > >> | > > >> | I'm running a 2.4.27 based om kernel using the migshm patches. My > > VMware > > >> | is somewhat dated being version 3.1.0 but I have seen no indication > > of a > > >> | particular version that was better at migration than any other. If > > >> | anyone > > >> | who has had positive experience with this could let me know what > > kind of > > >> | config they were using it would be of great assistance. > > >> > > >> I can't offer much help. I tried something similar recently using the > > >> newer > > >> VMware Player, but didn't get the 2.4.27 oM kernel to migrate > > processes > > >> between the two instances I was running. I posted a few notes on the > > >> quantian-general list about that. > > >> > > >> So if anybody has pointers or leads on openMosix inside VMware, I'd > > like > > >> to > > >> hear them too. > > >> > > >> Regards, Dirk > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. > > >> -- Thomas A. Edison > > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > > files > > > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > > > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > > > _______________________________________________ > > > openMosix-general mailing list > > > openMosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > > files > > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. 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PO Box 3567 Tualatin, OR 97062 http://www.nsci.us/ Voice: (503) 293-7656 Fax: (503) 885-0770 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ openMosix-general mailing list openMosix-general-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openmosix-general End of openMosix-general Digest ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click