Fwd: [OM Cooker] Project state and comments to recent questions
Per Øyvind Karlsen <[email protected]> Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:49:38 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.linux.mandrake.cooker.devel |
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| Message-ID | <CA+0WU1SPbpWjfSuvine2uTn91aVO7T5P3L++PB3pP+o0WqibLQ@mail.gmail.com> |
--001a1141b94ed2c0a8051bf9cd59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable blackcrack or someone else, could you forward this to the om-cooker list? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Per =C3=98yvind Karlsen <[email protected]> Date: 2015-07-26 12:42 GMT+02:00 Subject: Re: [OM Cooker] Project state and comments to recent questions To: Cooker OpenMandriva <[email protected]> Cc: OpenMandriva General Discussions <[email protected]>, OpenMandriva Council <[email protected]>, "Cooker at zarb.org" < [email protected]>, Rapha=C3=ABl Jadot <[email protected]>, Guilherme Moro = < [email protected]>, Sam Spurlock <[email protected]> 2015-07-26 10:32 GMT+02:00 OpenMandriva Council <[email protected]>: > > Hello community > > The recent message "Project state, future and the inevitable doom=E2=80= =9D was > considered so counterproductive and rude that we've had to mute it and pu= t > its author on premoderation for now because we want this list to be > productive without degenerating into flamewar-of-the-day. > In what way was it considered counterproductive and rude? While I referred to someone as a psychopat, that's simply based on behaviour demonstrated and damage inflicted, which most share opinion on. For those who do not know the details around (yet some were provided), those most likely perceived it as something rude, while to the rest it's more about referring to something known and specific without having to devolve into euphemisms and political correctness. So being blunt about problematic characters etc. is something that's absoluty necessary, as if not even able to acknowledge the problematic nature of individiuals, one cannot remoty expect for the issues to be resolved automagically by themself... And if my allegations towards Kate's behaviour is unfair, she should be able to defend herself against... And asking questions about Kate & Reiman's commitment, is fully appropriate to ask, Mandriva being liquidated, ROSA being sold, Kate even herself revealed privately to others not knowing where she'll be in three months (like about almost three months ago...), makes it extremely relevant. Especially considering the former association President & current vice-president, Rapha=C3=ABl Jadot told me about the severity of the situat= ion and how being unable to pay contributors that's supposed to receive payment, while also being able to cover server leasing cost, which IIRC alone without paying contributors money owned, will only last for like a few months lonnger. My criticism towards Kate, comes much from information (that she should've shared publically) shared by Rapha=C3=ABl in private, which also holds the = same frustration with Kate. (sorry Rapha=C3=ABl, you promised to write this mail= to begin with, and you promised to participate once I raise the topic, so now you need to share your views of matter, while also a general overview of he situation as you see it.) So Kate, can you care to comment on my allegations about pulling out? > > OpenMandriva is a team, consisting of many people, investing lots of time > into the distro. We all have opinions and don't always agree, but we alwa= ys > look for consensus and resolve conflicts peacefully. Anyone can ask for a= n > issue to be put on a meeting agenda (meetings are held regularly at known > times).The author of the muted email never did this. (To give you another > idea of the approach, recently he stated for example, that the meetings > were no good because they were held at the same time every week. So no > matter what we do we will always be wrong). > Resorting to censorship is certainly not what can be considered as conensus and peaceful conflict resolution, but rather bona fide oppression... > > The email violates our code of conduct ( > https://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Mod) in several ways, and recent ECHR > case law actually requires us to remove content that is potentially > offensive to third parties (such as Matthew) from our servers. (see e.g. > http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2015/06/shock-european-court-decisio= n-websites-are-liable-for-users-comments/ > ) > I think not, while my characteristics of Matthew might've been found offensive (people getting offended by criticism isn't an uncommon thing), it provided context and argumentation to support description of behaviour..= . And considering that this is brought up, then the slanderous and clearly lying slanderous blog post about me should've beenn removed ages ago: https://forums.openmandriva.org/en/discussion/998/long-story-the-real-facts= -and-a-long-overdue-reply-to-false-statement-moondrake-cooker-vs-oma > > The email does bring up a few points that we think need to be clarified > (this tricky desinformation flow could seed some doubts, unfortunately). > If you provided information, there would be less room for desinformation. > 1. It is true that we are not rich, but we have enough money to keep > all of our infrastructure safe for a minimum of 1 year from now, and we > constantly work on various possibilities to further improve our financial > state. And we do have progress. Members of association get annual financi= al > report, and answers to questions immediately after they ask these. We got > nothing to hide and give no grounds to conspiracy theories. > So can we get an insight into these? If this is true, the situationn must've drastically changed since Rapha=C3=ABl told me the following back i= n January... "we have around 2000 =E2=82=AC, we owe around 1000 to Nicco and have to pay= around 350=E2=82=AC per month" 2. Speaking of infra, in the last few days there was a high risk of > that ABF would be switched off very soon (and ROSA would move its data > somewhere else, relaunch etc, they can tell better themselves if asked). > However, the Council was busy saving all our data and making sure that > all of our common work is not under threat anymore. While the email autho= r > was busy with text in his regular style. > Yes, and this concern even if seemingly being less critical now, was considered as far more severe threats, yet noone even spoke about this possibly complete halt of the project in public, discussed how to deal with, making preparations or anything in time that could've been made necessary... 3. As for the trademark situation, unfortunately "Mandriva is dead, so > all their trademarks are gone" is not true, trademarks can be sold off an= d > Mandriva did that before being dissolved. The deal that allows us to use > the OpenMandriva name is perpetual however, and cannot be revoked by the > new owner of the trademarks, so we are safe. Similarily, Hearst still > claims to own the Mandrake name, and while their case is weak, we don't > think fighting off trademark suits is a wise use of our resources. > The new trademark holder leaves us with less flexibility and collaboration concerning the use of, so a new trademark holder which is a creditor only holding it as an asset, we cannot expect to have any interest from them in consulting, advicing or making any potential future changes to... Well, for Mandrake trademark, who would they be sueing? In my proposal I made it clear that the association may have it's own OMV Lx, but what's important to notice here is that the association doesn't own the project, is not to control or have any legal responsibilities with the project. As it's been made quite clear that the original cooker project is different from om-cooker, with the disitribution changing version number, signing key, branding and everything of value that we still hold, the original cooker project from which the original Linux-Mandrake was made from is clearly not the one which OMV Lx is coming from.. We should be allowed to continue the project under the same old one, for which we are to make our own decissions of, with distribution releases made separately from and keeping OMA out of any legal liabilities. So OMA may produce their OMV Lx as long as they want to continue without the cooker project's official release is being named Mandrake. And since we have no legal entity that would be targettable for being sued, I'd happily take on all of the responsibility for any potential legal issues that might arise from, and would be more than happy to invite Hearzt to come sue me in court over in Norway... 4. It was common decision to have not a =E2=80=9Cproject leader=E2=80= =9D, but several > people covering this role's objectives. Anyone interested in more detals, > give a shout, we will tell more or dig out the relevant meeting logs. > This common decission was made in TC meetings that had been rejected multiple times earlier on official mailing lists and meetings, yet a TC was created for which all the proposals, voting and decissions are made within the one and same meeting, without advance nor post notice about important details being announced on list.. So a TC deciding this in a meeting where so few people were even able to participate or voice their opinion to begin with, that really holds no merit. > > As always, we welcome any input as long as it is made in a civilized > manner - and let's avoid beating a dead horse over and over again. > So you consider that discussions about how the project is being governed and it's future is the equivalent of beating a dead horse? > > OpenMandriva Council > Hiding behind "OpenMandriva Council" again? Need I remind you that it's been repeatedly established that OMA is only to support the distribution, not govern it.. It's been explicitly told not to interfer with the project previously more than one time which was acknowledged previously, but now the newly elected OMA council seems to forget about these ground rules, and not only repeating the mistakesof the past, but even doing so far more aggressively.= . I'll bet that this mail won't reach it to any of the lists I've received it from as I'm being censored (and yes, moderation, especially premoderation is the exact definition of censorship, which are at strong conflicts with democracy, which this association claims for it to be based itself on... In stead of hiding behind general public responnses under "OpenMandriva Council", you should be able to answer the posts to the list written easily yourself and answer questions and concerns raised rather than ignoring or delfecting them which you clearly do now and thus avoids the possibility for any constructive discussion taking place. Also, I raised several legitimate concerns of non-offensive nature about the project and distributionn that never were answered, and was admitted by _TPG by himself to have been why he initiated discussions on this ban, in response to what he perceived as an attack on how the project were being run. None of these issues that were the real cause for why censoring me on list, while taking away my write access on ABF has even been answered. The "OpenMandriva Council" is not supposed to hold any higher ranking place within cooker than anyone else, actually even less, as it's not any contributing individual to the project. So why the Council sees it fit to interfer and dictate the rules for the project, what may be discussed on list, banning people from infrastructure etc. is something which any speculations regarding would not lend to it's favor... The counter-productive and rather destructive behaviour of taking away access from one of the most important key contributors only speaks about the complete disregard this council has for the project, but rather caring more about their personal motivations and reputation.. As [email protected] is the only list that this post is expected to make it to, I ask for anyone that I CC'ed to forward it to the other lists where this post was sent to, yet where I'm being moderated... -- Regards, Per =C3=98yvind --001a1141b94ed2c0a8051bf9cd59 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">blackcrack or someone else, could you forward this to the = om-cooker list?<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message = ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Per =C3=98yvind Karlsen</= b> <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">proyvind= @moondrake.org</a>></span><br>Date: 2015-07-26 12:42 GMT+02:00<br>Subjec= t: Re: [OM Cooker] Project state and comments to recent questions<br>To: Co= oker OpenMandriva <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">om-c= [email protected]</a>><br>Cc: OpenMandriva General Discussions &= lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= riva.org</a>>, OpenMandriva Council <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= nmandriva.org">[email protected]</a>>, "Cooker at <a href= =3D"http://zarb.org">zarb.org</a>" <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg">[email protected]</a>>, Rapha=C3=ABl Jadot <<a href=3D"mailto:rjado= [email protected]">[email protected]</a>>, Guilherme Moro <<a href=3D"= mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>>, Sam Spur= lock <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>= ><br><br><br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"g= mail_quote"><span class=3D"">2015-07-26 10:32 GMT+02:00 OpenMandriva Counci= l <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target= =3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd= ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"margin:0px;= padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;fo= nt-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma= l;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi= te-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0= px">=C2=A0</span></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0= );font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varian= t:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-ali= gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spac= ing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">Hello community</span><= /div><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Aria= l,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weig= ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-inde= nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><br style= =3D"margin:0px;padding:0px"></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;colo= r:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;= font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16= px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wra= p;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">The recent m= essage "Project state, future and the inevitable doom=E2=80=9D was con= sidered so counterproductive and rude that we've had to mute it and put= its author on premoderation for now because we want this list to be produc= tive without degenerating into flamewar-of-the-day.</span></div></div></blo= ckquote></span><div>In what way was it considered counterproductive and rud= e?<br></div><div>While I referred to someone as a psychopat, that's sim= ply based on behaviour demonstrated and damage inflicted, which most share = opinion on. For those who do not know the details around (yet some were pro= vided), those most likely perceived it as something rude, while to the rest= it's more about referring to something known and specific without havi= ng to devolve into euphemisms and political correctness.<br><br></div><div>= So being blunt about problematic characters etc. is something that's ab= soluty necessary, as if not even able to acknowledge the problematic nature= of individiuals, one cannot remoty expect for the issues to be resolved au= tomagically by themself...<br><br></div><div>And if my allegations towards = Kate's behaviour is unfair, she should be able to defend herself agains= t...<br></div><div>And asking questions about Kate & Reiman's commi= tment, is fully appropriate to ask, Mandriva being liquidated, ROSA being s= old, Kate even herself revealed privately to others not knowing where she&#= 39;ll be in three months (like about almost three months ago...), makes it = extremely relevant.<br></div><div>Especially considering the former associa= tion President & current vice-president, Rapha=C3=ABl Jadot told me abo= ut the severity of the situation and how being unable to pay contributors t= hat's supposed to receive payment, while also being able=C2=A0 to cover= server leasing cost, which IIRC alone without paying contributors money ow= ned, will only last for like a few months lonnger.<br><br><br></div><div>My= criticism towards Kate, comes much from information (that she should'v= e shared publically) shared by Rapha=C3=ABl in private, which also holds th= e same frustration with Kate. (sorry Rapha=C3=ABl, you promised to write th= is mail to begin with, and you promised to participate once I raise the top= ic, so now you need to share your views of matter, while also a general ove= rview of he situation as you see it.)<br><br><br></div><div>So Kate, can yo= u care to comment on my allegations about pulling out?<br></div><span class= =3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d= iv style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-= serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norm= al;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;= text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"mar= gin:0px;padding:0px"></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0= ,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va= riant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text= -align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-= spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">OpenMandriva is a t= eam, consisting of many people, investing lots of time into the distro. We = all have opinions and don't always agree, but we always look for consen= sus and resolve conflicts peacefully. Anyone can ask for an issue to be put= on a meeting agenda (meetings are held regularly at known times).The autho= r of the muted email never did this. (To give you another idea of the appro= ach, recently he stated for example, that the meetings were no good because= they were held at the same time every week. So no matter what we do we wil= l always be wrong).</span></div></div></blockquote></span><div>Resorting to= censorship is certainly not what can be considered as conensus and peacefu= l conflict resolution, but rather bona fide oppression...<br></div><span cl= ass=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde= r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"= ><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sa= ns-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:n= ormal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0= px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"= margin:0px;padding:0px"></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rg= b(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font= -variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;t= ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;wo= rd-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">The email violat= es our code of conduct (</span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px"><= a href=3D"https://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Mod)" style=3D"margin:0px;paddin= g:0px" target=3D"_blank">https://wiki.openmandriva.org/en/Mod)</a></span><s= pan style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px"> in several ways, and recent ECHR = case law actually requires us to remove content that is potentially offensi= ve to third parties (such as Matthew) from our servers. (see e.g. </span><s= pan style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px"><a href=3D"http://arstechnica.co.u= k/tech-policy/2015/06/shock-european-court-decision-websites-are-liable-for= -users-comments/" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px" target=3D"_blank">http:/= /arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2015/06/shock-european-court-decision-websit= es-are-liable-for-users-comments/</a></span><span style=3D"margin:0px;paddi= ng:1px 0px"> )</span></div></div></blockquote></span><div>I think not, whil= e my characteristics of Matthew might've been found offensive (people g= etting offended by criticism isn't an uncommon thing), it provided cont= ext and argumentation to support description of behaviour...<br><br></div><= div>And considering that this is brought up, then the slanderous and clearl= y lying slanderous blog post about me should've beenn removed ages ago:= <br><br><br><a href=3D"https://forums.openmandriva.org/en/discussion/998/lo= ng-story-the-real-facts-and-a-long-overdue-reply-to-false-statement-moondra= ke-cooker-vs-oma" target=3D"_blank">https://forums.openmandriva.org/en/disc= ussion/998/long-story-the-real-facts-and-a-long-overdue-reply-to-false-stat= ement-moondrake-cooker-vs-oma</a><br></div><span class=3D""><blockquote cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa= dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"margin:0p= x;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;= font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:nor= mal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;w= hite-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px">= </div><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Ari= al,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-wei= ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-ind= ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span st= yle=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">The e</span><span style=3D"margin:0px;pa= dding:1px 0px">mail does bring up a few points that we think need to be cla= rified (this tricky desinformation flow could seed some doubts, unfortunate= ly).</span></div></div></blockquote></span><div>If you provided information= , there would be less room for desinformation. <br></div><span class=3D""><= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div styl= e=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;f= ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;lett= er-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr= ansform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0= px;padding:1px 0px">1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It is true that we are not r= ich, but we have enough money to keep all of our infrastructure safe for </= span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">a </span><span style=3D"mar= gin:0px;padding:1px 0px">minimum </span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1= px 0px">of </span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">1 year from no= w, and we constantly work on various possibilities to further improve our f= inancial state. And we do have progress. Members of association get annual = financial report, and answers to questions immediately after they ask these= . We got nothing to hide and give no grounds to conspiracy theories.</span>= </div></div></blockquote></span><div>So can we get an insight into these? I= f this is true, the situationn must've drastically changed since Rapha= =C3=ABl told me the following back in January...<br>"we have around 20= 00 =E2=82=AC, we owe around 1000 to Nicco and have to pay around 350=E2=82= =AC per month"<div><span></span><br></div></div><span class=3D""><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D= "margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-= size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s= pacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf= orm:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;p= adding:1px 0px">2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Speaking of infra, </span><span = style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">in the last few</span><span style=3D"m= argin:0px;padding:1px 0px"> days there was a high risk of that ABF would be= switched off very soon (and R</span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px = 0px">OSA</span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px"> would move its d= ata somewhere else, relaunch etc, they can tell better themselves if asked)= . However, the </span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">C</span><s= pan style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">ouncil was busy saving all our dat= a and making sure that all of our common work is not under threat anymore. = While the email author was busy with text in his regular style.=C2=A0</span= ></div></div></blockquote></span><div>Yes, and this concern even if seeming= ly being less critical now, was considered as far more severe threats, yet = noone even spoke about this possibly complete halt of the project in public= , discussed how to deal with, making preparations or anything in time that = could've been made necessary...<br><br><br></div><span class=3D""><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D= "margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-= size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s= pacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf= orm:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;p= adding:1px 0px">3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As for the trademark situation, = unfortunately "Mandriva is dead, so all their trademarks are gone"= ; is not true, trademarks can be sold off and Mandriva did that before bein= g dissolved. The deal that allows us to use the OpenMandriva name is perpet= ual however, and cannot be revoked by the new owner of the trademarks, so w= e are safe. Similarily, Hearst still claims to own the Mandrake name, and w= hile their case is weak, we don't think fighting off trademark suits is= a wise use of our resources.</span></div></div></blockquote></span><div>Th= e new trademark holder leaves us with less flexibility and collaboration co= ncerning the use of, so a new trademark holder which is a creditor only hol= ding it as an asset, we cannot expect to have any interest from them in con= sulting, advicing or making any potential future changes to...<br><br></div= ><div>Well, for Mandrake trademark, who would they be sueing?<br></div><div= >In my proposal I made it clear that the association may have it's own = OMV Lx, but what's important to notice here is that the association doe= sn't own the project, is not to control or have any legal responsibilit= ies with the project.<br></div><div>As it's been made quite clear that = the original cooker project is different from om-cooker, with the disitribu= tion changing version number, signing key, branding and everything of value= that we still hold, the original cooker project from which the original Li= nux-Mandrake was=C2=A0 made from is clearly not the one which OMV Lx is com= ing from..<br>We should be allowed to continue the project under the same o= ld one, for which we are to make our own decissions of, with distribution r= eleases made separately from and keeping OMA out of any legal liabilities.<= br><br></div><div>So OMA may produce their OMV Lx as long as they want to c= ontinue without the cooker project's official release is being named Ma= ndrake.<br></div><div>And since we have=C2=A0 no legal entity that would be= targettable for being sued, I'd happily take on all of the responsibil= ity for any potential legal issues that might arise from, and would be more= than happy to invite Hearzt to come sue me in court over in Norway...<br><= br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde= r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"= ><div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sa= ns-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:n= ormal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0= px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style= =3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It was common de= cision to have not a =E2=80=9Cproject leader=E2=80=9D, but several people c= overing this role</span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">'s</= span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px"> objectives. </span><span s= tyle=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">Anyone</span><span style=3D"margin:0px;= padding:1px 0px"> interested in more detals, give a shout, we will tell mor= e or dig out the relevant meeting logs.=C2=A0</span></div></div></blockquot= e><div>This common decission was made in TC meetings that had been rejected= multiple times earlier on official mailing lists and meetings, yet a TC wa= s created for which all the proposals, voting and decissions are made withi= n the one and same meeting, without advance nor post notice about important= details being announced on list..<br><br></div><div>So a TC deciding this = in a meeting where so few people were even able to participate or voice the= ir opinion to begin with, that really holds no merit.<br></div><span class= =3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d= iv style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-= serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norm= al;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;= text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"m= argin:0px;padding:1px 0px">=C2=A0</span></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;padd= ing:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font-s= tyle:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;li= ne-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s= pace:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">= As always, we welcome any input as long as it is made in a civilized manner= - and let's avoid </span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">be= at</span><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">ing a dead horse over a= nd over again.</span></div></div></blockquote></span><div>So you consider t= hat discussions about how the project is being governed and it's future= is the equivalent of beating a dead horse?<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g= mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l= eft:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><span><font color=3D"#888888">= <div style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,san= s-serif;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:no= rmal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0p= x;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D= "margin:0px;padding:1px 0px">=C2=A0</span></div><div style=3D"margin:0px;pa= dding:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px;font= -style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;= line-height:16px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white= -space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:1px 0px= ">OpenMandriva Council</span></div></font></span></div></blockquote><div>Hi= ding behind "OpenMandriva Council" again?<br><br></div><div>Need = I remind you that it's been repeatedly established that OMA is only to = support the distribution, not govern it..<br></div><div>It's been expli= citly told not to interfer with the project previously more than one time w= hich was acknowledged previously, but now the newly elected OMA council see= ms to forget about these ground rules, and not only repeating the mistakeso= f the past, but even doing so far more aggressively..<br><br></div><div>=C2= =A0<br></div></div>I'll bet that this mail won't reach it to any of= the lists I've received it from as I'm being censored (and yes, mo= deration, especially premoderation is the exact definition of censorship, w= hich are at strong conflicts with democracy, which this association claims = for it to be based itself on...<br><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"= >In stead of hiding behind general public responnses under "OpenMandri= va Council", you=C2=A0 should be able to answer the posts to the list = written easily yourself and answer questions and concerns raised rather tha= n ignoring or delfecting them which you clearly do now and thus avoids the = possibility for any constructive discussion taking place.<br><br></div><div= class=3D"gmail_extra">Also, I raised several legitimate concerns of non-of= fensive nature about the project and distributionn that never were answered= , and was admitted by _TPG by himself to have been why he initiated discuss= ions on this ban, in response to what he perceived as an attack on how the = project were being run.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>None of the= se issues that were the real cause for why censoring me on list, while taki= ng away my write access on ABF has even been answered.<br><br></div><div cl= ass=3D"gmail_extra">The "OpenMandriva Council" is not supposed to= hold any higher ranking place within cooker than anyone else, actually eve= n less, as it's not any contributing individual to the project.<br><br>= <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">So why the Council sees it fit to inte= rfer and dictate the rules for the project, what may be discussed on list, = banning people from infrastructure etc. is something which any speculations= regarding would not lend to it's favor...<br></div><div class=3D"gmail= _extra">The counter-productive and rather destructive behaviour of taking a= way access from one of the most important key contributors only speaks abou= t the complete disregard this council has for the project, but rather carin= g more about their personal motivations and reputation..<br><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_extra">As <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blan= k">[email protected]</a> is the only list that this post is expected to make = it to, I ask for anyone that I CC'ed to forward it to the other lists w= here this post was sent to, yet where I'm being moderated...<br></div><= div class=3D"gmail_extra">--<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Regards,<b= r></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Per =C3=98yvind<br></div></div> </div><br></div> --001a1141b94ed2c0a8051bf9cd59--