Re: [Security Firewall] Florins Firewall

On 3-Aug-05, at 6:22 PM, Shade wrote:

> This is starting to sound frighteningly like a Slashdot thread, but  
> I'll add my $0.02 as well...
>
> Vincent Danen wrote:
>
>> Trying to take back?  No.  It just seems odd to me that everyone  
>> is  discussing forking MNF on the MNF mailing list.  As I said, I  
>> don't  really care what you do... it's all open source, and you're  
>> freely  available to do what you like with it.  But I think it's  
>> rude to  discuss that proposition on the list of the product  
>> you're planning  to fork.
>>
>
> It's actually quite common that forks are started on the mailing  
> list of the original project. That's oftentimes where it's decided  
> if a fork is necessary, and if enough people are behind the idea.  
> If you think it's rude, that's fine...I wouldn't take it too  
> personally myself. But I agree, a seperate mailing list is  
> definitely needed if indeed there is enough of a following.

Oh, I'm not taking it personally.  Far from it.  MNF is...  
well.. .nothing to me... just another product to support.  I just  
found it quite ironic how everyone liked MNF, hated everything about  
it other than the actual product itself, and wanted to fork it and  
*I* just thought it might be more appropriate since there seemed to  
be a rather large consensus, that people create a new list and move  
it there.

After all, I just answered the "what next" question... I figured a  
new mailing list was a logical step.  Was I wrong?

>> The decision has been made, a consensus informally reached, and   
>> someone asked what the next step should be.  I respectfully asked   
>> that the next step should be a separate mailing list to discuss  
>> what  to do with it... nothing more.
>>
>
> Let's be fair, your initial comment was: "I have no problem with   
> you wanting to take Mandriva's hard work and invested man hours,   
> wages, and research to run off and start your own copy-cat distro  
> and  rob Mandriva of their well-earned work... that is the spirit  
> of open  source and GPL'd software these days, so its entirely your  
> right."
>
> Implying that the subscribers of this mailing list (and your  
> customers), as well as the entire Open Source movement are thieves  
> by claiming we want to "rob them" is far from respectful.

Yes, well.... ummm...  it's true tho, right?  I guess you can mince  
it any way you want but that's pretty much what it boils down to,  
right?  Ok, perhaps it was a little extreme, perhaps a bit more  
flowery and poetic than it needed to be, but hey, I was in a good  
mood last night and felt like being creative.

>>   This isn't tyranny, this isn't about taking a list back, this  
>> isn't  about taking a product back, this is all about one thing:  
>> respect.
>
> Since you brought it up...How about respect for the customers? As a  
> previous member mentioned, he ran into great difficulty trying to  
> get the support that he paid for shortly before the Mandriva  
> rebranding. I ran into the exact same thing. After convincing a  
> client to purchase the support, the three occasions where we  
> actually needed the support that was paid for were largely ignored,  
> all responses were automated and the only real contact I ever had  
> were confirmations of subsciption status. In the end the solutions  
> were found in IRC channels, of all places, and those guys were far  
> more patient, helpful and professional.

Well, I can't honestly respond to that because a) I'm not in support  
and b) I don't know the particulars of either situation.  I won't  
even try to guess/defend/whatever.

>> Why?  I don't understand what I said that made everyone so upset.
>
> It isn't what you said, it's how you said it that I believe has  
> some members a little taken aback. Again, implying that we're  
> thieves is a little extreme, but in addition the overly defensive  
> attitude and unwarranted melodrama is a little unexpected from a  
> company trying to acheive a more corporate and professional image.

Well, if you looked at the email address I'm posting with, I'm not  
wearing a moderator hat nor am I wearing the Mandriva hat.  I'm just  
a guy, same as you, talking on a mailing list I happen to be  
subscribed to and seeing things I happen not to agree with.

Once I start posting from a mandriva.com email address, *then* you  
can tell me that I'm speaking on behalf of any company.  If I seem  
unprofessional, it's not a reflection of Mandriva at all... you can  
take it as a reflection of my consulting company I guess, but that  
doesn't really matter to me or anyone else.

So sorry, no... this has nothing to do with Mandriva and everything  
to do with how I personally feel and wrote.

>> We make the CVS available for MNF... you'll notice  it's not  
>> hidden, it's not locked away, it's not out of the public's   
>> hands.  Which is another reason I'm insulted you compare us to   
>> Microsoft.  But despite all of this, and all we do, it seems like   
>> it's not enough.  You get upset because we don't give you the  
>> final  product with a bowtie and silver plate?  Come on... if you  
>> want the  fancy wrapping, you need to pay for it.  But there's  
>> nothing stopping  you from getting your hands dirty and compiling  
>> a few things out of  CVS is there?  Absolutely not.
>>
>
> It seems like it's not enough because quite frankly, it isn't...If  
> you want your product to compare to other enterprise firewalls,  
> dumping the CVS tree at your potential customers and saying "build  
> it yourself" is very unlikely to generate sales. Most commercial  
> software firewalls

Never did that.  I never said dumping CVS was a way of test driving  
the firewall.  I merely said it was available.  Where did you get the  
idea of using it as a testbed for evalution?

> offer trial periods for customers to "try before you buy", and even  
> many appliance based firewalls have demo programs where you can get  
> a free unit for a limited time. The dual license that SNF and MNF  
> were originally released under was (I believe) based on this  
> concept, but MNF2 seems to have taken a different route, which may  
> have inspired the Microsoft comparison.  I personally don't believe  
> the Microsoft comparison is warranted, because they offer free  
> trials for their software, and also have impeccable support services.

Well, here's a novel question.  Has anyone actually asked someone who  
has anything to do with MNF about these things?  I see lots of "I  
hate Mandriva" and "I'm going to switch all my desktops and servers"  
but I don't see anyone who's actually said "Yes, I talked to Francois  
and he said this and this was the reason, etc.".

I mean, you can all complain and bluster and threaten on this mailing  
list all you like, but it is a mailing list that only a few people  
read.  I mean, there's me (and the only reason I'm on it is because  
someone deciced that because it starts in security I somehow need to  
be the moderator), Daouda and Andreas (developers), Florin (ex- 
developer), and... well... no one from management, sales, marketing,  
or any other division of the company that has absolutely any say in  
how things are done.

Do you think you're all barking up the wrong tree?  Did someone think  
any of this was getting to the people who actually need to know how  
you feel?

>> I hate to say it, and I don't mean to sound rude,
>
> Too late.

I guess so, eh?

Well, doesn't seem to be too terribly constructive around here.  I  
think I've got more important things to do, and some folks have a  
mailing list to start so I suppose it'll get much quieter here  
(should be good for me, not getting so many bounce notices from sympa).

Have fun all.  I wish you good luck and success with "Florin's  
Firewall" and I suppose if anyone actually wanted to see about  
getting some kind of dual-license or preview/testing thing with MNF,  
maybe someone will decide to talk to the right people.  FWIW, I did  
point some folks at management to the archives of the list so maybe  
enough has been done already and they're aware of your feelings.   
That was my part in helping out.  No no, no thanks are required.

Perhaps someone else could start a thread on Club since you're all  
Club members.  I know management gets more of a clue about things  
there than here.  That's probably about the most constructive piece  
of advice I can give.  Take it or leave it.  I don't know if anyone  
has noticed that Mandriva does listen to the community for a lot of  
things... the problem is, too often the community is having  
discussion and outrage in places where no one is really listening.   
If you expect someone to hear you, you need to speak up.

-- 
Annvix - Secure Linux Server: http://annvix.org/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
{FEE30AD4 : 7F6C A60C 06C2 4811 FA1C  A2BC 2EBC 5E32 FEE3 0AD4}