Re: F46 Change Proposal: Changes Discussion Only On Devel List

+1. I don't have a strong opinion which of the two platforms to use (mailing list vs Discourse) but it would be best if there was one rather than two.

Evan

On 7/22/26 12:10, Aoife Moloney via devel-announce wrote:
> Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/ChangesDiscussionOnlyOnDevelList
> Discussion thread -
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f46-change-proposal-changes-discussion-only-on-devel-list/197431
> 
> == Summary ==
> Starting with Fedora Linux 46, discussion of Fedora Changes as part of
> the [https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/operations/pgm%20guide/changes/
> Changes Process] will happen solely on the devel mailing list and will
> no longer be simultaneously discussed on Fedora Discussion (the
> Discourse forum). Changes will continue to be announced on Discourse
> in read-only topics to provide a bridge between the two platforms.
> This Change aims to improve communication by avoiding having two
> separate mediums for the same discussion.
> 
> == Owner ==
> * Name: [[User:gotmax23| Maxwell G]], [[User:ngompa| Neal Gompa]],
> [[User:decathorpe| Fabio Valentini]], [[User:salimma | Michel Lind]]
> * Email: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
> [email protected]
> 
> 
> == Detailed Description ==
> Starting with Fedora Linux 46, discussion of Fedora Changes as part of
> the [https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/operations/pgm%20guide/changes/
> Changes Process] will happen solely on the devel mailing list and will
> no longer be simultaneously discussed on Fedora Discussion (the
> Discourse forum). Changes will be announced on Discourse in read-only
> topics with links to the wiki page and devel discussion for each
> Change to provide a lightweight bridge between the two platforms.
> 
> This Change aims to improve communication by avoiding having two
> separate mediums for the same discussion. The current "split brain"
> approach has been a significant pain point for Change Owners, FESCo
> members, and other project contributors attempting to follow Changes
> feedback discussion. Contributors have noted this as a cause of
> burnout.
> 
> If technically feasible to use on read-only Discourse threads, we will
> keep the bot enabled that creates non-binding polls ("How do you feel
> about the proposal as written?") to collect community feedback on
> Changes. We will also adapt the bot to disable the anonymous results
> option on the Discourse polls so individual voices are better heard.
> FESCo will consider the polls alongside feedback on the devel list
> when voting on proposed Changes.
> 
> == Feedback ==
> There was some pre-Change discussion in
> "[https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[email protected]/thread/Q7KX3BDBUPCNOPVALP5GKR2MHTWB6ASD/
> How can we improve the Changes Process?]"
> ([https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/VPQXOLZV3NVUOVTF4VCUEZU2BEFCQVQ5/
> Maxwell's summary/takeaways]) on the devel list. This discussion was
> covered by LWN in
> [https://lwn.net/Articles/1081557/#:~:text=Changes%20to%20changes
> Fedora grapples with change § Changes to changes].
> 
> Additional feedback was provided in a
> [https://matrix.to/#/!DMptnKvPTdgoULzUTV:fedoraproject.org/$MuM8JzFoXojgU1x1LJMUO1Vn6kqOzTOjxSaLwqdjvdw?via=fedoraproject.org&via=fedora.im&via=matrix.org&web-instance%5Belement.io%5D%3Dchat.fedoraproject.org
> discussion in the #devel room on Matrix]. Feedback about Changes
> Discussion on Discourse was largely negative. Multiple contributors
> expressed that the current state of Changes discussion led to burnout.
> 
> '''Q/A:'''
> 
> * Why not just use Discourse for all Change Proposals and stop
> discussing them on the mailing list?
> ** The Change Owners do not wish to alienate or exclude existing
> contributors who rely on the mailing list workflow to participate in
> discussion. Other Fedora development discussion takes place on the
> devel mailing list, so it does not make sense to migrate only Changes
> discussion.  Additionally, we believe that Discourse is an ill-suited
> platform for long, threaded discussions surrounding Fedora Changes.
> This position was discussed in more depth in the Matrix and devel list
> discussions linked above.
> * What about the email interface for Discourse?
> ** The email interface for Discourse is not comparable to a mailing
> list, and it de-prioritizes email users. The Discourse email support
> delays sending email notifications, makes formatting look out of place
> on responses sent via email, and email users miss out on reactions and
> other types of engagement. The ability to reply by email does not
> solve the issues with Discourse as a platform.
> 
> == Benefit to Fedora ==
> This Change aims to address a significant pain point in discussion of
> Fedora Changes. This should also simplify the Change Wrangler's work.
> 
> == Scope ==
> * Proposal owners:
> ** Update documentation and FESCo issue templates to clarify that the
> devel mailing list is the canonical medium for Changes discussion.
> ** Work with the Change Wrangler to implement the necessary process changes.
> 
> * Other developers:
> ** Change wrangler: Announce Changes as usual on the devel-announce
> list. Stop copying and formatting Changes Proposal wikitext to/for
> Discourse. Create read-only posts on Discourse with links to the Wiki
> post and lists.fedoraproject.org discussion thread for each Change.
> ** Implement the proposed Changes to the Discourse voting poll
> creation bot. If these Changes are infeasible, disable the bot.
> 
> * Release engineering:
> [https://forge.fedoraproject.org/releng/tickets/issues #Releng issue
> number]
> 
> * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> 
> * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
> 
> * Alignment with the Fedora Strategy:
> 
> 
> == Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
> 
> 
> == Early Testing (Optional) ==
> 
> 
> == How To Test ==
> 
> 
> == User Experience ==
> Users, contributors, Change Owners, and FESCo members will all have
> one less place to follow for discussion about proposed Fedora Changes.
> Changes will continue to be announced on Fedora Discussion, and anyone
> currently subscribed via Discourse can follow links to the
> corresponding thread on lists.fedoraproject.org, which provides a
> lightweight web interface (Hyperkitty) to respond to list threads.
> Additionally, we will no longer post misformatted Change proposal
> texts on Fedora Discussion, instead providing a link to the canonical
> proposal on the Fedora Wiki. If technically feasible, the community
> feedback straw polls will remain enabled on Discourse.
> 
> == Dependencies ==
> 
> 
> == Contingency Plan ==
> * Contingency mechanism: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> * Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> * Blocks release? N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> 
> == Documentation ==
> N/A (not a System Wide Change)
> 
> == Release Notes ==
> 

-- 
Evan Goode (he/him)
DNF Technical Lead
Red Hat, Inc. | Atlanta, GA | ET

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