Re: Zero-tolerance educational methods for promoting questionable policies???

On Wed, 5 May 2004, Axel Thimm wrote:

> On Wed, May 05, 2004 at 12:58:31AM +0200, Dag Wieers wrote:
> > On Tue, 4 May 2004, Axel Thimm wrote:
> > > The discussion is about Dag blessing a scheme as a standard and
> > > forcing other repos to either go with his scheme, or not be
> > > coexistable. Technically speaking he is obsoleting other people's
> > > packages.
> > 
> > Mind you that you're still messing things up. First of all, the versioning 
> > of the kernel-modules is *still* not decided. [...]
> > Both Matthias and I have objected to it because it is counter-intuitive, 
> > confusing and just plain ugly. Contrary to what you may think, I don't 
> > object to the idea technically.
> 
> So, at least you admit it is "undecided". Why do you obsolete foreign
> packages from other repos then?

The versioning was undecided imo, the naming was not. Unless you want 
unanimous decisions. We never ever decided anything unanimous.

 
> > However the issue here is the naming of kernel modules (almost everybody 
> > agreed on using kernel-module-<name> for kernel modules and <name>-utils 
> > for extra module-specific utilities). I'll make a list of repositories 
> > with kernel-modules:
> > 
> > 	kernel-module-<name>:
> > 		freshrpms (1 package)
> > 		dag (22 packages)
> > 		fedora.us (2 official, more non-official)
> > 
> > 	<name>-kmdl:
> > 		atrpms (8 packages)
> > 
> > 	<name>-kernel
> > 		planetccrma (1 package)
> 
> Cool counting. "My repo is bigger than the others, so I must be
> right"? And where did you get those numbers?
>
> # rpm -qa '*kmdl*' | wc -l
>      20
>
> ATrpms has more than 20 kmdls and half a dozen of core kernel patches
> (not that numbers matter, but you seem to care.

I wasn't manipulating the data, I counted: bttv, cx88, ivtv, lirc, 
ltmodem, madwifi, saa7134, video4linux.

I noticed I missed forcedeth. Anyway, rpm -qa isn't really a good 
indication either.
 
	[root@lisse packages]# find /mnt/dar/packages/ -name "kernel-module-*" | wc -l
	   4199

I just added the numbers because if I didn't you'd be arguing fedora.us 
and freshrpms don't add up. But you see, I can't do it right anyway.

Since planetccrma is also planning to do kernel-module, I can safely say 
everyone but you is adhering to the kernel-module naming policy. If 
packages don't matter...

Once again I hate to see this discussion again, because we already had 
this one:

	http://lists.atrpms.net/pipermail/repo-coord/2004-March/000098.html

 
> > Axel likes to badmouth me, and he's done a good job today by trying to 
> > isolate me.
> 
> Sorry Dag, but that is all your own accomplishment. You got upset
> about ATrpms giving you a lower priority because you broke
> compatibility. You started with requesting more communication, and
> when presented with the fact that communication had taken already
> place 2 months ago (http://bugzilla.atrpms.net/show_bug.cgi?id=69) and
> you couldn't care less for compatibility, you went wild.

I don't get upset about you lowering priority, I was surprised. I never 
complained. However I rather have you disable it as I don't think one 
repository should have control over how other repositories are used by its 
users.

What if I did the same as you ? I could lower your priorities to make 
everything work. Or disable whatever I want without noticing anyone.

You claim to be compatible, but the first thing anyone encounters adding 
your repository is that their repository configuration is replaced by 
whatever you have configured. Only one repository does that, atrpms.

I never complained about that either, if people want that they'll have it. 
I don't want that and that's why I don't really care. Don't tell me I'm 
complaining...

Once again you point to that bugzilla entry to make your case, I'm not 
impressed. I fixed two bugs and close the ticket, you kept reopening it 
while a simple naming policy would have sufficed.

Don't pretend the bugzilla entry is the cause, it's a symptom of much 
more. Endless discussions that I cannot bear to take part of anymore, 
still you force it down my throat. Game over. I don't have the desire, 
I don't have the time, I don't have the courage. And whatever I do, I can be 
sure you can throw it back in my face. Tell me why I would even bother ?

And whatever I say, you'll be replying and repeating on and on...


> > I'm trying very hard to ignore all the insinuations and false accusations, 
> 
> Please quote, otherwise the above is in itself both. I have only
> quoted facts.

Well, go a few lines back,

	> Cool counting. "My repo is bigger than the others, so I must be
	> right"? And where did you get those numbers?

that's not very nice.

	> you couldn't care less for compatibility, you went wild.

That's not really true, you're insinuating. Where did I go wild ? I was 
pretty bored about the way you handled things. Reopening bugs.

You also stated that I take things personally ? I'm being incompatible 
(while you're not ??) ? I'm doing this specifically to harm _you_ ? And 
many more of these insinuations.

Worst of all, I hate to discuss this in public and I try not to accuse you 
of anything. I might have, but I try not to. I'm sure you'll have a list 
ready of things I've said. But it's not in my nature and it's not very 
nice.


> > I'll make it very simple, if Axel adheres to the kernel-module-naming 
> > standard and you can convince Matthias about the kernel-module-versioning, 
> > I'll implement the kernel versioning too.
> 
> And the pope goes singing, and the pigs start flying.

Good night, I have no time for these endless discussions. This is worse 
than the initial discussions with fedora.us. If the goals of fedora.us 
weren't so much different I'd probably already submitted the whole lot of 
packages there, now that they seem to getting up to speed and more 
reasonable.

Stop this madness please. I already regret having used your bugzilla only 
to see you're throwing stuff in my face.

Friends don't do that. I suppose we are not friends.

--   dag wieers,  [email protected],  http://dag.wieers.com/   --
[Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]