Re: Product cycles too short for small businesses (esp. Red Hat)

Edward,

A very reasonable question because the explanation did not get quoted in 
all the replies to replies to replies.  Here is what I originally said 
about this aspect....

"Well.... I am stuck in the middle.  I am a SMALL company, but I have to 
run a big database (Oracle).  I feel that Linux is not yet ready for true 
100% desktop use (for us) because we can't yet run all the apps that my 
company needs to run on it. (Thus we run Windows workstation PCs that runs 
Linux apps in XWindows provided by Cygwin.) I desperately need the new 
features that are appearing in the new linux releases so that I can move 
away from Windows toward 100% linux.  However, I also need the long-term 
stability of knowing that I can still get essential security fixes.

The combination of new linux versions always seems to coincide with the 
need to upgrade equipment.  If doing one, it only makes sense to do both -- 
  but we usually would not do only one and not the other.  However, this is 
a big deal in a small company and usually takes one person 6-8 weeks to 
fully build, install, configure, test, and debug the new environment.  That 
is 6-8 weeks full time at $60/hour -- it absolutely kills us.

Part of the problem is that linux seems to lag on drivers for the new 
equipment. Because we can only afford to replace equipment every few years, 
when we do, we try to get at the front of the curve.  However, that means 
that we end up with weeks fighting SCSI RAID drivers that don't work; video 
drivers that conflict with this or that.  This costs real time and real 
money; more than my small organization can justify.  Yet if we buy 1-2 year 
old [new] equipment, by the time we replace it in five years, it is ancient 
technology and the last couple years of its life are spent hoping that it 
has enough horsepower to do the job.

Jay



Edward Muller wrote:
> I'm not attacking your position, but I have to ask...
> 
> If you are a small, 5 person company like you said how does it cost you
> 'several thousand dollars in labor' to upgrade say from redhat 8 to 9 or
> eventually from 9 to 10?
> 
> How many servers do you have?
> What is running on them?
> 
> I can't see an OS upgrade like that, on one server taking more than a
> day, and at a reasonable rate costing no more $1,000.00 USD. 
> 
> If you have a wide selection of non standard rpms, add on applications
> and the like. I could see it taking longer and costing more.
> 
> On Mon, 2003-09-08 at 14:17, Jay Smith wrote:
> 
>>David,
>>
>>At no time did I say that I wanted the service for free.  I have been 
>>paying for the o/s.  I have been paying for up2date.  I am happy to 
>>continue doing so.
>>
>>What I do want is the opportunity to have a product that gives me the 
>>opportunity to BUY ongoing security fixes for longer than 12-18 months. And 
>>that does not force me to do an o/s upgrade that costs me several thousand 
>>dollars in labor just because the company (Red Hat) has made *marketing* 
>>decisions that put small companies in a bad spot.
>>
>>In my opinion, about a year ago something major changed at Red Hat and 
>>their marketing and pricing has started to be based on the depth of the 
>>buyer's pockets instead of the utility of the product.  You may say that 
>>this is simply "real world" and "they have to stay in business", etc. 
>>However, there is more than one way to approach those goals and I get the 
>>distinct feeling that Red Hat is not understanding the needs of part of 
>>their market.
>>
>>The virility of your replies suggests to me either that you work for Red 
>>Hat.  Is that the case?  If not, then from where does the anger and bad 
>>language come from?
>>
>>Jay
>>
>>David Vehrs wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 02:44:04PM -0400, Jay Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>David,
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for your thoughts on this.  What my SMALL company would need is the 
>>>>Enterprise Server Standard Edition at $799, plus whatever the annual 
>>>>ongoing fee would be.
>>>
>>>
>>>Do you really need a FULL YEAR of phone support? Or is 90 days enough?  If 90 days is enough (and you can survive with download only) then we've got you down to Enterprise Server Basic Edition for $349/yr.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sure, $799 is less than the daily lunch cost in the corporate dining room 
>>>>for some companies, but at my small company, $799 is real money.
>>>
>>>
>>>FYI $799 is real money for all companies.  Well maybe not to dotcom companies but most of them aren't around anymore.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>No, I am *not* asking for *free* updates forever.  What I am asking for is 
>>>>assured availability of updates and security fixes for more than 12-18 
>>>>months.
>>>
>>>
>>>>When RH comes out with a new version that I install, we go ahead and buy 
>>>>the  "box"; I don't try to download it for free.  We DO pay the annual fee 
>>>>for up2date (which only works some of the time for us).  We are willing to 
>>>>pay.
>>>
>>>
>>>Willing to pay but only as little as possible right?  Very generous of you to pay for one box set and then expect support for all your servers and workstations. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>David, the point is that this *is* an annoyance -- that is what this list 
>>>>is about -- and that the annoyance is that the linux "packagers" are 
>>>>forgetting about, misunderstanding, or ignoring the economic limitations 
>>>>of the smaller business customers.
>>>
>>>
>>>Jay, this is an annoyance for you because you choose not to educate yourself into Redhats several levels of support/cost and because you thought the "free ride" of the early years would continue forever.  
>>>
>>>This is an annoyance for me because I have to listen to people like you complain about something that isn't a problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Also, the short product cycle without security updates after a short 
>>>>amount of time will create ongoing security problems for the whole 
>>>>industry. Anybody who can't afford to buy the more costly products or who 
>>>>can't afford the (large amount of) time required to constantly install new 
>>>>versions of the free products will be without security fixes after a 
>>>>couple of years.  Those machines will then become targets for attacks that 
>>>>could (like Windows machines) turn them into zombies that will be use for 
>>>>DoS attacks on the 'net.
>>>
>>>
>>>So because some people are lazy and/or stupid, Redhat should foot the bill providing a service to them for FREE for EVER?
>>>
>>>If you want free updates forever then run a distro that provides for that (example: Debian). 
>>>
>>>Dave V.
>>>

-- 
Jay Smith

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