Re: Bouncing Spam

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007, Ellad Tadmor wrote:

> Thanks for the reply. So I guess what you are saying is that the bounced 
> message does not reach the spammer, but an innocent site used by it. I can 
> see how that would be annoying.
>
> However, it seems to me that it is your responsibility as the 
> administrator/postmaster to prevent spam from being distributed off your 
> domains.

Please read up on e-mail forgery before making such claims. I do not 
control virus authors and spammers who send mail in my users' name. As 
part of your research, you may also wish to look up the concept of a Joe 
Job.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-spam_techniques_(e-mail)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_job

> Just like individual users should install anti-virus software to 
> limit the spread of viruses, mail domains should have software to prevent the 
> spread of spam. Now I understand that spam is currently not easy to detect, 
> but that just means that the way email is processed and distributed needs to 
> be significantly changed. It should be impossible for someone to send out an 
> untraceable message. Also, perhaps a tiny charge needs to be placed on 
> sending email making spamming unprofitable. Something needs to be done. If 
> people respond by bouncing spam back where it came from (which I do not 
> consider abuse) pressure will be brought to bear (unfortunately on people 
> like you) and perhaps some changes will occur.

That is why I emphasized the need to be well versed in reading e-mail 
headers to prevent flooding innocent bystanders. I am currently led to 
believe that you do not posess such skills. If you are not 100% sure you 
are writing to the spammer, you are probably spamming an innocent 
victim, and the victim may not take kindly to it.

> I am playing devil's advocate here to some extent. Since I'm a nice guy I 
> probably will not be bouncing messages given what you've said - but I 
> definitely understand people who do and think they have the right to do so.

Oh, I understand spam victims, and I go out of my way to try and educate 
them. I would certainly check up on the law of the land before asserting 
any "right" to "defend" against spam in a retaliatory fashion; if you 
aim badly and the recipient is good at forensics you may find yourself 
in small claims court under California law, to name but one example 
(IANAL; YMMV; contents may have settled during shipment).

I'm a nice guy too -- I don't mailbomb people who send misdirected 
bounces. Spammers, however, occasionally have less moral fiber, and 
that's another reason why I would recommend against the practice you 
propose.

Checking my inbox before hitting ^X, I saw that David Morris wrote: "I 
disagree with his belief that spammers actually remove complainers 
[...]".   Actually, I do not recommend unsubscribing as an anti-spam 
strategy, but my experience is that most spammers do remove complainers. 
Obviously, they may have already sold the address on to other spammers 
(and in some cases, wholly owned "affiliates").

I've done a whack-the-mole experiment with a well known US spamhaus and 
can assure you that the spammers I dealt with did keep their word. 
Still, I stopped unsubscribing after the address was resold to about the 
200th spamhaus. (The net result is that removing complainers is 
completely congruent with still spamming the victims blind. Remember, 
most traceable US spamhausen want to be CAN-SPAM compliant.) A second 
spamtrap was left "subscribed" and received more spam. Both spamtraps 
were "Nadines"; I didn't even have to bait the spamhaus (and yes, I'm 
100% positive that neither was an "honest mistake" on the part of the 
spamhaus):
   http://www.honet.com/Nadine/

My point with respect to Ellad's question is that, even if a forged 
bounce reaches the spammer and not an innocent victim, it doesn't do any 
more good than simply jumping through the spammers unsubscribe hoop. 
Retaliation (even if only by sending forged bounces) is a loaded sawn 
off shotgun aimed squarely at the feet. As Dirty Harry said so 
eloquently, Do You Feel Lucky?

Cheers,

 				-- Bert
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