Re: Marine killed in his own home

"Vanessa Guerena says she heard noise outside their home about 9 a.m.
Thursday and woke her husband who had just gone to bed after working a
12-hour shift at the Asarco Mine, she said. There were no sirens or shouts
of "police," she said."

>The helmet cam video clearly disputes that.<


There was 8-10 seconds of siren moments before the raid.  Police siren, car
alarm?  I lived in lousy neighborhood for awhile a number of years ago -
police sirens were routine and we never thought anything about them.  


Shouts of police?  The camera/mic is a ways away so it is hard to say for
sure what was said by the cops at the door, but "clearly disputes that"
ain't clear at all.  Apparently the neighbors don't recall hearing a siren,
which is completely understandable if you have ever lived in a marginal
neighborhood. 

***as I said, the cam shows that as being different.  It may not change
anything but it does validate the Police claim this was not a no knock raid.

>I speak in no way of justifying the raid or his death.  But one initial
thought is that with sirens blaring outside and police identifying
themselves loudly, it is an act of stupidity to arm yourself.   <

They weren't identifying themselves loudly immediately before entering.
There sure wasn't any shouting going on.  

***I could hear them shouting when they knocked and again before they broke
the door in.  Just sayin.

When you are in your own home doing nothing illegal you have every right in
the world to arm yourself if you feel threatened.  Assholes wearing a badge
does not deprive you of that basic right.  
Note he didn't come out shooting and there isn't even evidence that he
pointed the weapon at the pigs.  

***Calling them pigs is unwarranted.  The cops doing the raid were doing
what they were ordered to do, and being insulting is petty.  This is a legal
issue and they cops screwed up.  But I have no problem pointing out that the
victim contributed to his own demise, as much as I find it horrible.



>I also want to point out that fact he had not shot and the gun was on 
>safety
is not relevant, nor is his being a Marine.  That fact he was holding it did
make him a threat and in many other settings if a police officer saw a man
holding a weapon there would be justification for deadly force.<

No it wouldn't.  Holding a weapon is not an absolute justification for
deadly force.  Deadly force has to be proportionate and it wasn't.  71 shots
to none, into a home with possible unarmed occupants, including shots fired
blindly by some cowboy pig is not justifiable deadly force.


***The number of shots is irrelevant.   If police in the course of duty see
a weapon pointed at them they are justified in shooting.  The real
determining factor is "was he pointing it at them" and unless we get the
helmet cams from the guy in the hallway we will never know.  


>The real issue we should be debating is why his home was selected for a 
>raid
in the first place, because that element is the primary point of failure if
he had no drugs or money.  In almost all of the cases I have been reading
about that has been a huge factor.<

That isn't the "real" issue we should be debating, it just adds to the
despicable conduct of these jackbooted thugs.  Not only did they act
murderously, they are entirely without any excuse.  

***I disagree.  The raids are not the problem when they are executed
properly and legally.   They are the problem when police use them
irresponsibly.  Had this been an Al Qaeda cell plotting a revenge bombing
would you react differently?   Details matter.


http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/22/jose-guerena-evidence-dont-buy 

***that article is useless as is a lot of the information since the police
have sealed what they believed was their justification for the raid.  You
can speculate and accuse all you want but it is useless without that data. 



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