A few questions - Music before Revolution; Cage and Maderna; the concept of 'experimental music' in the 1960s
"Pace, Ian" <[email protected]> Sun, 29 Jul 2018 12:03:10 +0000
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Dear All,
I have a few distinct questions about which I wondered if subscribers to th=
is list might have some answers.
1. The 1972 four-LP set Music Before Revolution (available at Ubuweb - h=
ttp://ubu.com/sound/music-before-revolution.html ) (Odeon 1C 165-28954/7 - =
https://www.discogs.com/Ensemble-Musica-Negativa-Music-Before-Revolution/re=
lease/872739 ) features works of Cage, Feldman, Brown, Wolff and Ichiyanagi=
, and conversations with these, and Hans G Helms and Heinz-Klaus Metzger. A=
ccording to Alex J. Lubet, 'Indeterminate Origins: A Cultural Theory of Ame=
rican Experimental Music', in James R. Heintze. (ed.), Perspectives on Amer=
ican Music since 1950 (New York and London: Garland Publishing, 1999), p. 9=
9, this album was a 'tribute to Mao's Cultural Revolution'. What is known o=
f the extent to which the composers involved were aware of or sympathetic t=
o the motivations behind such a project? Wolff's Maoist sympathies for a pe=
riod are well-known, as are Cage's over a shorter time from the early 1970s=
; but I have not encountered anything from Feldman or Brown on this subject=
, and am unsure of the extent to which Ichiyanagi shared sympathies with ot=
her Japanese composers of his generation who gravitated towards Maoist idea=
s.
2. Both Antonio Trudu (in La "Scuola" di Darmstadt: I Ferienkurse dal 19=
46 a oggi (Milan: Ricordi, 1992), p. 125 n. 6) and Christopher Shultis (in =
'Cage and Europe', in David Nicholls (ed.) The Cambridge Companion to John =
Cage (Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press, 2002), p. 33) arg=
ue that Bruno Maderna was apparently responsible for suggesting that Wolfga=
ng Steinecke invite Cage to Darmstadt in 1958 in place of Boulez, though th=
ese claims (which apparently come from former IMD archivist Wilhelm Schl=FC=
ter) have been contested by Martin Iddon (in New Music at Darmstadt: Nono, =
Stockhausen, Cage, and Boulez (Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University=
Press, 2013), pp. 198-200) on the basis of examination of the published Ma=
derna-Steinecke correspondence. What I have not yet found, after consulting=
various sources on both Cage and Maderna, is much about the relationship b=
etween the two, and Maderna's thoughts on Cage's music and aesthetic. One o=
f the areas I am considering at the moment is the 'aleatoric' work of Boule=
z, Stockhausen, Maderna and others and its provenance. Much historical writ=
ing and that on new music in French treats this body of work as a separate =
category from Cageian indeterminacy, while Cage and (especially) Feldman, a=
nd many others after them, portrayed the former as essentially a second-han=
d rendition of what members of the New York School were doing earlier. So -=
does anyone know of any sources on Maderna and Cage, including anything Ma=
derna said about Cage in the 1950s and after? (Italian sources are fine). M=
aderna's Musica su due dimensioni (1952) was one of the first works to draw=
upon the ideas of the aleatoric of Werner Meyer-Eppler set down in the ran=
ge of lectures he gave between 1949 and 1953, which also of course inspired=
Meyer-Eppler's student Stockhausen. I am interested to establish to what e=
xtent Maderna perceived a degree of commonality between this school of thou=
ght and that coming to Europe soon afterwards from Cage.
3. As William Brooks, Christopher von Blumr=F6der, Heinz-Klaus Metzger a=
nd others have shown, the term 'experimental music' or near-equivalents hav=
e been around since the early twentieth-century at least. However, it was g=
iven a more focused meaning in Cage's 1955 essay 'Experimental Music: Doctr=
ine' - more specific than when he used it in the 1930s, reflecting his incr=
easing estrangement from what he portrayed as European avant-garde traditio=
ns. This concept was clarified in 'Experimental Music' (1957), then 'Histor=
y of Experimental Music in the United States' (first published in German, 1=
959). Also in 1955, in the first edition of his America's Music: From the P=
ilgrims to the Present (New York: McGraw Hill, 1955), Gilbert Chase has a c=
hapter on 'The Experimentalists', pp. 571-96, ranging from Cowell, Ornstein=
, Antheil (both of these two dismissed rather quickly on the grounds that t=
heir later music became more conventional), Ruggles, John J. Becker, Charle=
s Seeger, Ruth Crawford Seeger, the Canadians Colin McPhee, Gerald Strang a=
nd Henry Brant, and then the French-born Carlos Salzedo, Dane Rudhyar and V=
ar=E8se, also Lou Harrison and Partch, through to Cage and Feldman, noting =
the important precursor of Russolo and 'The Art of Noise'. But, despite not=
ing Partch, Cowell and Cage's Californian origins, Chase makes less of the =
European/American divide than does Cage, and there is little reason why a g=
ood deal of other European composers with no strong American connection cou=
ld not have fitted his category were this a history of art music in general=
rather than specifically American music. As such, his definition is mostly=
compatible with that current in the 1930s.
Following Cage's mid-late-1950s essays, something akin to the older definit=
ion, simply entailing experiments with new instruments, technology, sounds,=
notation, etc., as had been presented in Pierre Schaeffer's 'Vers une musi=
que experimentale' (1953) , in La revue musicale 236 (1957), pp. 18-23, was=
continued by Lejaren Hiller, then Abraham Antoine Moles, Fritz Winckel and=
others, and can be found loosely in a lot of European writings on new musi=
c through the 1960s and 1970s. But in terms of the Cageian definition, I ha=
ve found very little between Peter Yates's 'The American Experimental Tradi=
tion' (1960) (which as far as I can tell was not published until 1990, in S=
oundings 16, pp. 135-43), which informs his Twentieth-Century Music (London=
: George Allen & Unwin, 1967), until the formation of the Experimental Musi=
c Catalogue in London around 1970, and then the growth of this sub-culture =
leading to the publication of Michael Nyman's Experimental Music: Cage and =
Beyond (London: Studio Vista, 1974), one in a whole series of books on 'exp=
erimental' varieties of painting, theatre, cinema, architecture and dance f=
rom the same publisher. Leonard B. Meyer's 'The Arguments for Experimental =
Music', in Music, the Arts and Ideas (Chicago and London: University of Chi=
cago Press, 1967), pp. 245-65 is really closer to the Schaeffer/Hiller/Mole=
s definition. Various histories of American music published in the 1960s, s=
uch as those of Wilfred Mellers and H. Wiley Hitchcock, argue for a major d=
ifference between European and American developments in general, as present=
ed by Cage, and anticipated in Henry Cowell's 1933 essay 'Trends in America=
n Music', which when printed in American Composers on American Music: A Sym=
posium, second edition (New York: Frederick Ungar, 1962) included the term =
'experimental music'.
I am just curious to know if anyone knows of any more obscure or other writ=
ings from the 1960s which pick up upon and/or expand, develop or theorise C=
age's definitions further? By around 1960, the divide between Boulez, Stock=
hausen, Nono, Pousseur and others (though perhaps not necessarily Maderna) =
on one hand, and Cage, Feldman and Wolff (though not necessarily Brown) on =
the other was established, and events such as the 'Contre-Fest' in Cologne =
in 1960, or Josef Anton Riedl's Neue Musik M=FCnchen the same year consolid=
ated a divide between what might crudely be called a modernist 'mainstream'=
and a series of more iconoclastic European figures with links to Cage and =
Fluxus (with Stockhausen characteristically trying to keep a foot in both c=
amps, involved with both the ISCM and the Contre-Fest in Cologne, 1960). Th=
ese battles did not disappear in that decade, and were carried on in polemi=
cs by Metzger and others, while Amy Beal (in New Music, New Allies: America=
n Experimental Music in West Germany from the Zero Hour to Reunification (B=
erkeley, Los Angeles and London: University of California Press, 2006)) has=
traced in great detail the work of Helms, Hans Otte, Ernstalbrecht Stieble=
r, Reinhard Oehlschl=E4gel and others in promoting the music of Cage and ot=
hers in Germany, while she and Martin Iddon (in 'Trying to Speak: Between P=
olitics and Aesthetics, Darmstadt 197-1972', twentieth-century music 3/2 (2=
007), pp. 255-75) have also examined the tensions between the aesthetic age=
ndas of these types of figures and that pursued by Ernst Thomas when runnin=
g the courses at Darmstadt. But as far as I can tell, these debates were, d=
uring this decade, rarely centred specifically around the concept of 'exper=
imental music'. But I am very interested in any literature which might sugg=
est otherwise.
Best,
Ian
Dr Ian Pace
Senior Lecturer, Head of Performance
Department of Music
City University London
Northampton Square
London EC1V 0HB
UK
Tel +44 (0)20 7040 8016
'what distinguishes an educated person is not an elevated sense of one's kn=
owledge and intelligence. It is, instead, humility arising from an ever bet=
ter comprehension of what we don't know. And that can only be instilled by =
being confronted at university with genuine intellectual challenge - and le=
arning to rise to it.'
Raj Persaud and Adrian Furnham
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a few distinct questions about which I wonder=
ed if subscribers to this list might have some answers.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0cm" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">The 1972 four-LP set
<i>Music Before Revolution</i> (available at Ubuweb - <a href=3D"http://ubu=
.com/sound/music-before-revolution.html">
http://ubu.com/sound/music-before-revolution.html</a> ) (Odeon 1C 165-28954=
/7 - <a href=3D"https://www.discogs.com/Ensemble-Musica-Negativa-Music-Befo=
re-Revolution/release/872739">
https://www.discogs.com/Ensemble-Musica-Negativa-Music-Before-Revolution/re=
lease/872739</a> ) features works of Cage, Feldman, Brown, Wolff and Ichiya=
nagi, and conversations with these, and Hans G Helms and Heinz-Klaus Metzge=
r. According to Alex J. Lubet, ‘Indeterminate
Origins: A Cultural Theory of American Experimental Music’, in James=
R. Heintze. (ed.),
<i>Perspectives on American Music since 1950</i> (New York and London: Garl=
and Publishing, 1999), p. 99, this album was a ‘tribute to Mao’=
s Cultural Revolution’. What is known of the extent to which the comp=
osers involved were aware of or sympathetic to the
motivations behind such a project? Wolff’s Maoist sympathies for a p=
eriod are well-known, as are Cage’s over a shorter time from the earl=
y 1970s; but I have not encountered anything from Feldman or Brown on this =
subject, and am unsure of the extent to which
Ichiyanagi shared sympathies with other Japanese composers of his generati=
on who gravitated towards Maoist ideas.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso=
-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Both Antonio Trudu (in
<i>La “Scuola” di Darmstadt: I Ferienkurse dal 1946 a oggi </i>=
(Milan: Ricordi, 1992), p. 125 n. 6) and<i>
</i>Christopher Shultis (in ‘Cage and Europe’, in David Nicholl=
s (ed.) <i>The Cambridge Companion to John Cage</i> (Cambridge and New York=
: Cambridge University Press, 2002), p. 33) argue that Bruno Maderna was ap=
parently responsible for suggesting that Wolfgang
Steinecke invite Cage to Darmstadt in 1958 in place of Boulez, though thes=
e claims (which apparently come from former IMD archivist Wilhelm Schl=FCte=
r) have been contested by Martin Iddon (in
<i>New Music at Darmstadt: Nono, Stockhausen, Cage, and Boulez </i>(Cambrid=
ge and New York: Cambridge University Press, 2013), pp. 198-200) on the bas=
is of examination of the published Maderna-Steinecke correspondence. What I=
have not yet found, after consulting
various sources on both Cage and Maderna, is much about the relationship b=
etween the two, and Maderna’s thoughts on Cage’s music and aest=
hetic. One of the areas I am considering at the moment is the ‘aleato=
ric’ work of Boulez, Stockhausen, Maderna and others
and its provenance. Much historical writing and that on new music in Frenc=
h treats this body of work as a separate category from Cageian indeterminac=
y, while Cage and (especially) Feldman, and many others after them, portray=
ed the former as essentially a second-hand
rendition of what members of the New York School were doing earlier. So &#=
8211; does anyone know of any sources on Maderna and Cage, including anythi=
ng Maderna said about Cage in the 1950s and after? (Italian sources are fin=
e). Maderna’s
<i>Musica su due dimensioni </i>(1952) was one of the first works to draw u=
pon the ideas of the aleatoric of Werner Meyer-Eppler set down in the range=
of lectures he gave between 1949 and 1953, which also of course inspired M=
eyer-Eppler’s student Stockhausen.
I am interested to establish to what extent Maderna perceived a degree of =
commonality between this school of thought and that coming to Europe soon a=
fterwards from Cage.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm;mso=
-list:l0 level1 lfo1">As William Brooks, Christopher von Blumr=F6der, Heinz=
-Klaus Metzger and others have shown, the term ‘experimental music=
217; or near-equivalents have been around since the early twentieth-century
at least. However, it was given a more focused meaning in Cage’s 195=
5 essay ‘Experimental Music: Doctrine’ – more specific th=
an when he used it in the 1930s, reflecting his increasing estrangement fro=
m what he portrayed as European avant-garde traditions.
This concept was clarified in ‘Experimental Music’ (1957), the=
n ‘History of Experimental Music in the United States’ (first p=
ublished in German, 1959). Also in 1955, in the first edition of his
<i>America's Music: From the Pilgrims to the Present</i> (New York: McGraw =
Hill, 1955), Gilbert Chase has a chapter on ‘The ExperimentalistsR=
17;, pp. 571-96, ranging from Cowell, Ornstein, Antheil (both of these two =
dismissed rather quickly on the grounds that
their later music became more conventional), Ruggles, John J. Becker, Char=
les Seeger, Ruth Crawford Seeger, the Canadians Colin McPhee, Gerald Strang=
and Henry Brant, and then the French-born Carlos Salzedo, Dane Rudhyar and=
Var=E8se, also Lou Harrison and Partch,
through to Cage and Feldman, noting the important precursor of Russolo and=
‘The Art of Noise’. But, despite noting Partch, Cowell and Cag=
e’s Californian origins, Chase makes less of the European/American di=
vide than does Cage, and there is little reason why
a good deal of other European composers with no strong American connection=
could not have fitted his category were this a history of art music in gen=
eral rather than specifically American music. As such, his definition is mo=
stly compatible with that current
in the 1930s.<br>
<br>
Following Cage’s mid-late-1950s essays, something akin to the older d=
efinition, simply entailing experiments with new instruments, technology, s=
ounds, notation, etc., as had been presented in Pierre Schaeffer’s &#=
8216;Vers une musique experimentale’ (1953) , in
<i>La revue musicale </i>236 (1957), pp. 18-23, was continued by Lejaren Hi=
ller, then Abraham Antoine Moles, Fritz Winckel and others, and can be foun=
d loosely in a lot of European writings on new music through the 1960s and =
1970s. But in terms of the Cageian
definition, I have found very little between Peter Yates’s ‘Th=
e American Experimental Tradition’ (1960) (which as far as I can tell=
was not published until 1990, in
<i>Soundings</i> 16, pp. 135-43), which informs his <i>Twentieth-Century Mu=
sic </i>
(London: George Allen & Unwin, 1967), until the formation of the Experi=
mental Music Catalogue in London around 1970, and then the growth of this s=
ub-culture leading to the publication of Michael Nyman’s
<i>Experimental Music: Cage and Beyond </i>(London: Studio Vista, 1974), on=
e in a whole series of books on ‘experimental’ varieties of pai=
nting, theatre, cinema, architecture and dance from the same publisher. Leo=
nard B. Meyer’s ‘The Arguments for Experimental
Music’, in <i>Music, the Arts and Ideas </i>(Chicago and London: Uni=
versity of Chicago Press, 1967), pp. 245-65 is really closer to the Schaeff=
er/Hiller/Moles definition. Various histories of American music published i=
n the 1960s, such as those of Wilfred
Mellers and H. Wiley Hitchcock, argue for a major difference between Europ=
ean and American developments in general, as presented by Cage, and anticip=
ated in Henry Cowell’s 1933 essay ‘Trends in American MusicR=
17;, which when printed in
<i>American Composers on American Music: A Symposium</i>, second edition (N=
ew York: Frederick Ungar, 1962) included the term ‘experimental music=
’.
<br>
<br>
I am just curious to know if anyone knows of any more obscure or other writ=
ings from the 1960s which pick up upon and/or expand, develop or theorise C=
age’s definitions further? By around 1960, the divide between Boulez,=
Stockhausen, Nono, Pousseur and others
(though perhaps not necessarily Maderna) on one hand, and Cage, Feldman an=
d Wolff (though not necessarily Brown) on the other was established, and ev=
ents such as the ‘Contre-Fest’ in Cologne in 1960, or Josef Ant=
on Riedl’s
<i>Neue Musik M=FCnchen</i> the same year consolidated a divide between wha=
t might crudely be called a modernist ‘mainstream’ and a series=
of more iconoclastic European figures with links to Cage and Fluxus (with =
Stockhausen characteristically trying to keep
a foot in both camps, involved with both the ISCM and the Contre-Fest in C=
ologne, 1960). These battles did not disappear in that decade, and were car=
ried on in polemics by Metzger and others, while Amy Beal (in
<i>New Music, New Allies: American Experimental Music in West Germany from =
the Zero Hour to Reunification</i> (Berkeley, Los Angeles and London: Unive=
rsity of California Press, 2006))<i>
</i>has traced in great detail the work of Helms, Hans Otte, Ernstalbrecht =
Stiebler, Reinhard Oehlschl=E4gel and others in promoting the music of Cage=
and others in Germany, while she and Martin Iddon (in ‘Trying to Spe=
ak: Between Politics and Aesthetics, Darmstadt
197-1972’, <i>twentieth-century music</i> 3/2 (2007), pp. 255-75) ha=
ve also examined the tensions between the aesthetic agendas of these types =
of figures and that pursued by Ernst Thomas when running the courses at Dar=
mstadt. But as far as I can tell, these
debates were, during this decade, rarely centred specifically around the c=
oncept of ‘experimental music’. But I am very interested in any=
literature which might suggest otherwise.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ian<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Dr Ian Pace<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Senior Lecturer, Head of P=
erformance<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Department of Music</span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",ser=
if;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">City University London<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Northampton Square<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">London EC1V 0HB<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">UK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Tel +44 (0)20 7040 801=
6</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">‘<span style=3D"colo=
r:#494343;background:white">what distinguishes an educated person is not an=
elevated sense of one’s knowledge and intelligence. It
is, instead, humility arising from an ever better comprehension of what we=
don’t know. And that can only be instilled by being confronted at un=
iversity with genuine intellectual challenge – and learning to rise t=
o it.</span>’<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Raj Persaud and Adrian Fur=
nham<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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