Re: Discrete IP - retake
Pars Mutaf <[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.network.end2end |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CACQuieaYfSkU8KrZLbSRbejTksYx=L2C6xQkHKbf7EVfJx2XaQ@mail.gmail.com> |
OK see, where there was a problem: http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/ It still works. The problem was congestion apparently. You want to rely on MANET seriously? London 7/7 doesn't count, because police shut it down: http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Jon Crowcroft <[email protected]>wrote: > you give examples where it does work - so what? > > counter examples: > both recent tsunami in pacfic took out comms nets > in indonesia and japan. > in 7/7 in london after the bombs on the bus/tube, > for 7 hours no cell net worked at all. > > you only need 1 where it doesn't to have a reuirement for a > disaster backup net. I can give you many > > you havnt answered ANY of my questions. as usual. > > In missive <CACQuieaHQpQT_tsp9Lzp0Thw42U5xRZ1xbhHDM4Yi+G8co= > [email protected]>, Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0 > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. > >> > >>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of > disaster. > >>See for example: > >> > >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144 > >> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ > >> > http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages > >> > >>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more > robust > >>as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... > >> > >>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. > >> > >>ps: DTN, I did not question yet. > >> > >> > >> > >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >><[email protected]>wrote: > >> > >>> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one > songle > >>> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your > incorrect > >>> views about disasters and about our networks. > >>> > >>> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area. > >>> 1. how many do you need > >>> 2. what is their cost > >>> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation > >>> 4. how long do their power sources last > >>> 5. what are your plans for maintenance > >>> 6. how often are they deployed? > >>> what if you get repeated disasters E.g. > >>> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean) > >>> 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons > >>> > >>> > >>> by the way, you said MANET again - > >>> I said we modified this 12 years back or > >>> more to do DTN - > >>> please stop repeateing incorrect > >>> ideas YOU have that I didnt say. > >>> > >>> you are confused. > >>> > >>> In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8= > >>> [email protected]>, Par > >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >><[email protected]>wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure > >>> >>> > >>> >>> There are lots of ways to do that - > >>> >>> > >>> >>> One is to build standby cell power > >>> >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight > >>> >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected > >>> >>> the way the generators at fukushima were) > >>> >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old > >>> >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF > (fail > >>> >>> defined as >50% of lines down) - > >>> >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar > >>> >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact... > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >>Cool. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is > >>> parallel in > >>> >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get > >>> either of > >>> >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business > model > >>> >>> > >>> >>> However, its beside the point: > >>> >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone > want > >>> to > >>> >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny > Mnemonic)... > >>> >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_ > >>> >>> who have safe water, dry > >>> >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc - > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >>No I don't do this mistake. > >>> >> > >>> >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood > too***. > >>> >> > >>> >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me. > >>> >> > >>> >>It is not needed as you admitted above. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> What people building DTNs > >>> >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly) > >>> >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a > >>> >>> self organising set of people to > >>> >>> self organise opportunistic communication, > >>> >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along > >>> >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually > >>> >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have > >>> >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 - > >>> >>> go figure out how get that paid for). > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail > lists > >>> - > >>> >>> > >>> >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error > >>> >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to > >>> >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's > obviously > >>> >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though). > >>> >>> > >>> >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other, > >>> >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit > >>> >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing > >>> >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher > >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Its been, er, virtual... > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF= > >>> >>> [email protected]>, Par > >>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8 > >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET > will > >>> only > >>> >>> be > >>> >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to > do. I > >>> would > >>> >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for > >>> trying to > >>> >>> get > >>> >>> >>help from non-professional strangers. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume > energy > >>> for > >>> >>> others > >>> >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they > >>> should do. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken > leg, > >>> >>> request > >>> >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, > but I > >>> am not > >>> >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. > Some > >>> people > >>> >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my > >>> pocket. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>Therefore: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will > >>> broadcast > >>> >>> an > >>> >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about > education. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>=== > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust > enough, > >>> we may > >>> >>> not > >>> >>> >>even need a balloon: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> > >>> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>-- > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >> > >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b > >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >> > >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 > AM, > >>> Jon Cr= > >>> >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto: > >>> [email protected]"= > >>> >> target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> > >>> wrote:<br><blo= > >>> >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > >>> .8ex;border-left:1px #c= > >>> >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>There are lots of ways to do that -<br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>One is to build standby cell power<br> > >>> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br> > >>> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br> > >>> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br> > >>> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br> > >>> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF > (fail<br> > >>> >>defined as >50% of lines down) -<br> > >>> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br> > >>> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in > >>> fact...<br></blockq= > >>> >>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote > >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > >>> rgb(204,204,204)= > >>> >>;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is > >>> parallel in= > >>> >><br> > >>> >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get > >>> either = > >>> >>of<br> > >>> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business > model<br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>However, its beside the point:<br> > >>> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone > want > >>> to<br= > >>> >>> > >>> >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny > Mnemonic)...<br> > >>> >>they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br> > >>> >>who have safe water, dry<br> > >>> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc > >>> -<br></blockquote><div><br>No = > >>> >>I don't do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can serve > for > >>> the = > >>> >>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing > but a > >>> res= > >>> >>earch exercise to me. <br> > >>> >><br>It is not needed as you admitted above. > >>> <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot= > >>> >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > >>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s= > >>> >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>What people building DTNs<br> > >>> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br> > >>> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br> > >>> >>self organising set of people to<br> > >>> >>self organise opportunistic communication,<br> > >>> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br> > >>> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br> > >>> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br> > >>> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br> > >>> >>go figure out how get that paid for).<br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail > >>> lists -= > >>> >><br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br> > >>> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br> > >>> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's > >>> obviously<br= > >>> >>> > >>> >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, > though).<br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br> > >>> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br> > >>> >>while listening to 'Blood' playing<br> > >>> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br> > >>> >><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" > >>> target=3D"_blank">= > >>> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>Its been, er, virtual...<br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto: > >>> yf18msEv0dg-= > >>> >>[email protected]">[email protected] > >>> </a>>,= > >>> >> Par<br> > >>> >>s Mutaf typed:<br> > >>> >><br> > >>> >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br> > >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br> > >>> >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise > >>> MANET wi= > >>> >>ll only be<br> > >>> >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what > to > >>> do. I= > >>> >> would<br> > >>> >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my > battery > >>> for tr= > >>> >>ying to get<br> > >>> >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to > consume > >>> energy= > >>> >> for others<br> > >>> >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what > >>> they sh= > >>> >>ould do.<br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your > >>> broken le= > >>> >>g, request<br> > >>> >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other > things, > >>> but = > >>> >>I am not<br> > >>> >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can > >>> provide?<br= > >>> >>> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach > anyone. > >>> Some = > >>> >>people<br> > >>> >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have > this > >>> in my= > >>> >> pocket.<br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>Therefore:<br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It > >>> will br= > >>> >>oadcast an<br> > >>> >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.<br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about > >>> education.<= > >>> >>br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust > >>> enough,= > >>> >> we may not<br> > >>> >>=A0>>even need a balloon:<br> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D" > >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo= > >>> >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" > >>> target=3D= > >>> >>"_blank"> > >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones= > >>> >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br> > >>> >> > >>> >>=A0>><br> > >>> >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a > >>> href=3D"= > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.content-= > >>> >>based-science.org</a><br><br> > >>> >> > >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b-- > >>> > >>> cheers > >>> > >>> jon > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0 > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. <br><br>Well by > current p= > >>ractice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for > example: <= > >>br><br><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144"> > http://www= > >>.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a><br> > >><a href=3D" > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon= > >>es-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" > target=3D"_blank">ht= > >>tp:// > www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios= > >>-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br> > >><a href=3D" > http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph= > >>ones-major-disasters-messages"> > http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine= > >>ss/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages</a><br><br>If you dot > tru= > >>st them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you > agreed= > >>. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... <br> > >><br>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. <br><br>ps: > DTN, I = > >>did not question yet. <br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On > Thu, Se= > >>p 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a > href=3D"mail= > >>to:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"> > [email protected]= > >></a>></span> wrote:<br> > >><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-left:1p= > >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where's your funds to do your > pla= > >>n? you havn't answered one songle<br> > >>objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your > incorrect<br= > >>> > >>views about disasters and about our networks.<br> > >><br> > >>so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.<br> > >>1. how many do you need<br> > >>2. what is their cost<br> > >>3. how are you doing spectrum allocation<br> > >>4. how long do their power sources last<br> > >>5. what are your plans for maintenance<br> > >>6. how often are they deployed?<br> > >>what if you get repeated disasters E.g.<br> > >>hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)<br> > >>7. =A0what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons<br> > >><br> > >><br> > >>by the way, you said MANET again -<br> > >>I said we modified this 12 years back or<br> > >>more to do DTN -<br> > >>please stop repeateing incorrect<br> > >>ideas YOU have that I didnt say.<br> > >><br> > >>you are confused.<br> > >><br> > >>In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=3D<a href=3D"mailto: > Oqi__T9T0GEcr= > >>[email protected]">[email protected] > </a>>= > >>, Par<br> > >>s Mutaf typed:<br> > >><br> > >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br> > >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br> > >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br> > >>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected] > ">Jon.Crowcroft@= > >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> You want to build a standby infrastructure<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> There are lots of ways to do that -<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> One is to build standby cell power<br> > >>=A0>>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br> > >>=A0>>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br> > >>=A0>>> the way the generators at fukushima were)<br> > >>=A0>>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br> > >>=A0>>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a > 100years M= > >>TBF (fail<br> > >>=A0>>> defined as >50% of lines down) -<br> > >>=A0>>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br> > >>=A0>>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in > fac= > >>t...<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>Cool.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one > whic= > >>h is parallel in<br> > >>=A0>>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure > out ho= > >>w to get either of<br> > >>=A0>>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some > busines= > >>s model<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> However, its beside the point:<br> > >>=A0>>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a > disaster= > >> zone want to<br> > >>=A0>>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny > Mne= > >>monic)...<br> > >>=A0>>> they don't. what they want is to find other people > _nea= > >>rby_<br> > >>=A0>>> who have safe water, dry<br> > >>=A0>>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>No I don't do this mistake.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>***The base station can serve for the calling the > neighborhood t= > >>oo***.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>It is not needed as you admitted above.<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> What people building DTNs<br> > >>=A0>>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br> > >>=A0>>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br> > >>=A0>>> self organising set of people to<br> > >>=A0>>> self organise opportunistic communication,<br> > >>=A0>>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br> > >>=A0>>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later > usually<br> > >>=A0>>> (because coming along right away requires you to > have<br> > >>=A0>>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br> > >>=A0>>> go figure out how get that paid for).<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies > present= > >> on mail lists -<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own > error= > >><br> > >>=A0>>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online > fora= > >> to<br> > >>=A0>>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - > that= > >>9;s obviously<br> > >>=A0>>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left > then, t= > >>hough).<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each > other= > >>,<br> > >>=A0>>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a > bit= > >><br> > >>=A0>>> while listening to 'Blood' playing<br> > >>=A0>>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br> > >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" > ta= > >>rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> Its been, er, virtual...<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<br> > >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"mailto: > [email protected]">y= > >>[email protected]</a>>, Par<br> > >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3DISO-8859-1<b= > >>r> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the > infrastructure, ot= > >>herwise MANET will only<br> > >>=A0>>> be<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have > no id= > >>ea what to do. I would<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>rather wait for real help instead of > consuming m= > >>y battery for trying to<br> > >>=A0>>> get<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>This means that users really have no > incentive t= > >>o consume energy for<br> > >>=A0>>> others<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And > this= > >> is what they should do.<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>You can of course try to reach your > neighbors fo= > >>r your broken leg,<br> > >>=A0>>> request<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors > or ot= > >>her things, but I am not<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help > they= > >> can provide?<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot > rea= > >>ch anyone. Some people<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I > don't= > >> have this in my pocket.<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>Therefore:<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as > poss= > >>ible. It will broadcast<br> > >>=A0>>> an<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>address which everyone can call for real > help.<b= > >>r> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It > is a= > >>bout education.<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network > is no= > >>t robust enough, we may<br> > >>=A0>>> not<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>even need a balloon:<br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>> <a href=3D" > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new= > >>s-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" > targ= > >>et=3D"_blank"> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p= > >>hones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br> > >> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>--<br> > >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" > target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >></div></div>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br> > >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; > charset=3DISO-8859-1<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br> > >>=A0>><br> > >></div>=A0>><br><br><div > class=3D3D"gmail_quote&qu= > >>ot;>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=3D<br> > >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>owcroft <span > dir=3D3D"ltr">&a= > >>mp;lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto: > [email protected]= > >>.uk">[email protected]</a>"=3D<br> > >>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto: > Jon.Crowcrof= > >>[email protected]">[email protected] > </a></a>&gt;</span&g= > >>t; wrote:<br><blo=3D<br> > >>=A0>>ckquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"margin= > >>:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=3D<br> > >>=A0>>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br> > >></div>=A0>>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>There are lots of ways to do that -<br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>One is to build standby cell power<br><br> > >>=A0>>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br><br> > >>=A0>>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br><br> > >>=A0>>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br><br> > >>=A0>>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br><br> > >>=A0>>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years > MTBF (= > >>fail<br><br> > >>=A0>>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br><br> > >>=A0>>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br><br> > >>=A0>>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in > fact...&= > >>lt;br></blockq=3D<br> > >>=A0>>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. > <br= > >>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br> > >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > 0.8ex;border-left:1px= > >> solid rgb(204,204,204)=3D<br> > >>=A0>>;padding-left:1ex"><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which > is = > >>parallel in=3D<br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure out > how= > >> to get either =3D<br> > >>=A0>>of<br><br> > >>=A0>>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business > mod= > >>el<br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>However, its beside the point:<br><br> > >>=A0>>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster > zone= > >> want to<br=3D<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny > Mnemonic= > >>)...<br><br> > >>=A0>>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people > _near= > >>by_<br><br> > >>=A0>>who have safe water, dry<br><br> > >>=A0>>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc > -<br></blo= > >>ckquote><div><br>No =3D<br> > >>=A0>>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The > base= > >> station can serve for the =3D<br> > >>=A0>>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET > looks= > >> like nothing but a res=3D<br> > >>=A0>>earch exercise to me. <br><br> > >>=A0>><br>It is not needed as you admitted above. > <br><= > >>br><br>=3DA0</div><blockquot=3D<br> > >>=A0>>e class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0= > >>pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=3D<br> > >>=A0>>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>What people building DTNs<br><br> > >>=A0>>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting > incorrectly)<br><br= > >>> > >>=A0>>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br><br> > >>=A0>>self organising set of people to<br><br> > >>=A0>>self organise opportunistic communication,<br><br> > >>=A0>>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br><br> > >>=A0>>and fixes the infrastructure some while later > usually<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>(because coming along right away requires you to > have<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br><br> > >>=A0>>go figure out how get that paid for).<br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies > present = > >>on mail lists -=3D<br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own > error<b= > >>r><br> > >>=A0>>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora > to&l= > >>t;br><br> > >>=A0>>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - > that&#39= > >>;s obviously<br=3D<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left > then, th= > >>ough).<br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each > other,<= > >>br><br> > >>=A0>>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a > bit<b= > >>r><br> > >>=A0>>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; > playing<br><br> > >>=A0>>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br><br> > >>=A0>><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D" > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= > >>=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6= > >>ZJjt9lg</a>" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D<br> > >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" > targe= > >>t=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg > </a></a>&l= > >>t;br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>Its been, er, virtual...<br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > >>=A0>>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D3D<a > href=3D= > >>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yf18msEv0dg-">yf18msEv0dg-</a>=3D<br> > >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected] > ">[email protected]= > >>mail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto: > [email protected].= > >>com">[email protected] > </a></a>&gt;,=3D<br> > >>=A0>> Par<br><br> > >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>s Mutaf typed:<br><br> > >>=A0>><br><br> > > >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br&= > >>gt;<br> > >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: > text/plain;= > >> charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br><br> > >></div>=A0>><div class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><div > class=3D3D= > >>"h5">=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad > idea:<br&= > >>gt;<br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the > infrastructur= > >>e, otherwise MANET wi=3D<br> > >>=A0>>ll only be<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who > have = > >>no idea what to do. I=3D<br> > >>=A0>> would<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of > consum= > >>ing my battery for tr=3D<br> > >>=A0>>ying to get<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional > strangers.<br= > >>><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no > incent= > >>ive to consume energy=3D<br> > >>=A0>> for others<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real help. > And= > >> this is what they sh=3D<br> > >>=A0>>ould do.<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your > neighbo= > >>rs for your broken le=3D<br> > >>=A0>>g, request<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional > neighbors = > >>or other things, but =3D<br> > >>=A0>>I am not<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real > help= > >> they can provide?<br=3D<br> > >>=A0>>><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I > canno= > >>t reach anyone. Some =3D<br> > >>=A0>>people<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I > don&= > >>amp;#39;t have this in my=3D<br> > >>=A0>> pocket.<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as > fast as= > >> possible. It will br=3D<br> > >>=A0>>oadcast an<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for > real he= > >>lp.<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking > problem. It= > >> is about education.<=3D<br> > >>=A0>>br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular > network = > >>is not robust enough,=3D<br> > >>=A0>> we may not<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D" > http://www.= > >>trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www= > >>.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D</a><br> > > >>=A0>>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/= > >>" target=3D3D=3D<br> > >>=A0>>"_blank"><a href=3D" > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b= > >>logs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.trust.= > >>org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D</a><br> > > >>=A0>>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><= > >>;br><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> > > >>=A0>></div></div></blockquote></div><br>= > >>;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a > href=3D3D= > >>"=3D<br> > >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" > target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" > target=3D3D"_blank&q= > >>uot;><a href=3D"http://www.content-" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.conten= > >>t-</a>=3D<br> > >> > >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://based-science.org" > target=3D"_blank">based-sci= > >>ence.org</a></a><br><br><br> > >>=A0>><br> > >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--<br> > >><br> > >>=A0cheers<br> > >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> > >>=A0 =A0jon<br> > >><br> > >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a > href= > >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.cont= > >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br> > >> > >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org