Re: Discrete IP - retake
Georgia Sakellari <[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.network.end2end |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAEnKGyCAO4=whS3KGn4CMdzhbmngvg2eH7Fnuj3-A9oocxkHeQ@mail.gmail.com> |
Dear all, I have been following this discussion with great interest and I would like to invite you all to submit to this relevant workshop I am co-organising so that we can discuss all this in person. It will definitely be an interesting, to say the least, session. http://san.ee.ic.ac.uk/pernem2013/ Kind regards, Georgia On Sep 20, 2012 12:52 PM, "Pars Mutaf" <[email protected]> wrote: > OK see, where there was a problem: > > > http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/ > > It still works. The problem was congestion apparently. You want to rely on > MANET seriously? > > London 7/7 doesn't count, because police shut it down: > > > http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html > > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> you give examples where it does work - so what? >> >> counter examples: >> both recent tsunami in pacfic took out comms nets >> in indonesia and japan. >> in 7/7 in london after the bombs on the bus/tube, >> for 7 hours no cell net worked at all. >> >> you only need 1 where it doesn't to have a reuirement for a >> disaster backup net. I can give you many >> >> you havnt answered ANY of my questions. as usual. >> >> In missive <CACQuieaHQpQT_tsp9Lzp0Thw42U5xRZ1xbhHDM4Yi+G8co= >> [email protected]>, Par >> s Mutaf typed: >> >> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0 >> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> >> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. >> >> >> >>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of >> disaster. >> >>See for example: >> >> >> >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144 >> >> >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ >> >> >> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages >> >> >> >>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more >> robust >> >>as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... >> >> >> >>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. >> >> >> >>ps: DTN, I did not question yet. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >><[email protected]>wrote: >> >> >> >>> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one >> songle >> >>> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your >> incorrect >> >>> views about disasters and about our networks. >> >>> >> >>> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area. >> >>> 1. how many do you need >> >>> 2. what is their cost >> >>> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation >> >>> 4. how long do their power sources last >> >>> 5. what are your plans for maintenance >> >>> 6. how often are they deployed? >> >>> what if you get repeated disasters E.g. >> >>> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean) >> >>> 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> by the way, you said MANET again - >> >>> I said we modified this 12 years back or >> >>> more to do DTN - >> >>> please stop repeateing incorrect >> >>> ideas YOU have that I didnt say. >> >>> >> >>> you are confused. >> >>> >> >>> In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8= >> >>> [email protected]>, Par >> >>> s Mutaf typed: >> >>> >> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b >> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>> >> >> >>> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>> >><[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> There are lots of ways to do that - >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> One is to build standby cell power >> >>> >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight >> >>> >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected >> >>> >>> the way the generators at fukushima were) >> >>> >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old >> >>> >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF >> (fail >> >>> >>> defined as >50% of lines down) - >> >>> >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar >> >>> >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact... >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>Cool. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is >> >>> parallel in >> >>> >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get >> >>> either of >> >>> >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business >> model >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> However, its beside the point: >> >>> >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster >> zone want >> >>> to >> >>> >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny >> Mnemonic)... >> >>> >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_ >> >>> >>> who have safe water, dry >> >>> >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc - >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>No I don't do this mistake. >> >>> >> >> >>> >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood >> too***. >> >>> >> >> >>> >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me. >> >>> >> >> >>> >>It is not needed as you admitted above. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> What people building DTNs >> >>> >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly) >> >>> >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a >> >>> >>> self organising set of people to >> >>> >>> self organise opportunistic communication, >> >>> >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along >> >>> >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually >> >>> >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have >> >>> >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 - >> >>> >>> go figure out how get that paid for). >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail >> lists >> >>> - >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error >> >>> >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to >> >>> >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's >> obviously >> >>> >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though). >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other, >> >>> >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit >> >>> >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing >> >>> >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher >> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Its been, er, virtual... >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF= >> >>> >>> [email protected]>, Par >> >>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8 >> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise >> MANET will >> >>> only >> >>> >>> be >> >>> >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to >> do. I >> >>> would >> >>> >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for >> >>> trying to >> >>> >>> get >> >>> >>> >>help from non-professional strangers. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume >> energy >> >>> for >> >>> >>> others >> >>> >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they >> >>> should do. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your >> broken leg, >> >>> >>> request >> >>> >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, >> but I >> >>> am not >> >>> >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. >> Some >> >>> people >> >>> >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my >> >>> pocket. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>Therefore: >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will >> >>> broadcast >> >>> >>> an >> >>> >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about >> education. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>=== >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust >> enough, >> >>> we may >> >>> >>> not >> >>> >>> >>even need a balloon: >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>-- >> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>> >> >> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b >> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>> >> >> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 >> AM, >> >>> Jon Cr= >> >>> >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto: >> >>> [email protected]"= >> >>> >> target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> >> >>> wrote:<br><blo= >> >>> >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 >> >>> .8ex;border-left:1px #c= >> >>> >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >> >>> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>There are lots of ways to do that -<br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>One is to build standby cell power<br> >> >>> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br> >> >>> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br> >> >>> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br> >> >>> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br> >> >>> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF >> (fail<br> >> >>> >>defined as >50% of lines down) -<br> >> >>> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br> >> >>> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in >> >>> fact...<br></blockq= >> >>> >>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote >> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= >> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >> >>> rgb(204,204,204)= >> >>> >>;padding-left:1ex"> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is >> >>> parallel in= >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to >> get >> >>> either = >> >>> >>of<br> >> >>> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business >> model<br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>However, its beside the point:<br> >> >>> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone >> want >> >>> to<br= >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny >> Mnemonic)...<br> >> >>> >>they don't. what they want is to find other people >> _nearby_<br> >> >>> >>who have safe water, dry<br> >> >>> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc >> >>> -<br></blockquote><div><br>No = >> >>> >>I don't do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can >> serve for >> >>> the = >> >>> >>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing >> but a >> >>> res= >> >>> >>earch exercise to me. <br> >> >>> >><br>It is not needed as you admitted above. >> >>> <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot= >> >>> >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >> >>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s= >> >>> >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>What people building DTNs<br> >> >>> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br> >> >>> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br> >> >>> >>self organising set of people to<br> >> >>> >>self organise opportunistic communication,<br> >> >>> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br> >> >>> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br> >> >>> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br> >> >>> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br> >> >>> >>go figure out how get that paid for).<br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on >> mail >> >>> lists -= >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br> >> >>> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br> >> >>> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's >> >>> obviously<br= >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, >> though).<br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br> >> >>> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br> >> >>> >>while listening to 'Blood' playing<br> >> >>> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br> >> >>> >><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" >> >>> target=3D"_blank">= >> >>> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>Its been, er, virtual...<br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto: >> >>> yf18msEv0dg-= >> >>> >>[email protected]"> >> [email protected] >> >>> </a>>,= >> >>> >> Par<br> >> >>> >>s Mutaf typed:<br> >> >>> >><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br> >> >>> >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise >> >>> MANET wi= >> >>> >>ll only be<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea >> what to >> >>> do. I= >> >>> >> would<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my >> battery >> >>> for tr= >> >>> >>ying to get<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to >> consume >> >>> energy= >> >>> >> for others<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is >> what >> >>> they sh= >> >>> >>ould do.<br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your >> >>> broken le= >> >>> >>g, request<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other >> things, >> >>> but = >> >>> >>I am not<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can >> >>> provide?<br= >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach >> anyone. >> >>> Some = >> >>> >>people<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have >> this >> >>> in my= >> >>> >> pocket.<br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>Therefore:<br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. >> It >> >>> will br= >> >>> >>oadcast an<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.<br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about >> >>> education.<= >> >>> >>br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not >> robust >> >>> enough,= >> >>> >> we may not<br> >> >>> >>=A0>>even need a balloon:<br> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D" >> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo= >> >>> >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" >> >>> target=3D= >> >>> >>"_blank"> >> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones= >> >>> >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>=A0>><br> >> >>> >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a >> >>> href=3D"= >> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >> >>> http://www.content-= >> >>> >>based-science.org</a><br><br> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b-- >> >>> >> >>> cheers >> >>> >> >>> jon >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >> >> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0 >> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. <br><br>Well by >> current p= >> >>ractice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for >> example: <= >> >>br><br><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144"> >> http://www= >> >>.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a><br> >> >><a href=3D" >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon= >> >>es-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" >> target=3D"_blank">ht= >> >>tp:// >> www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios= >> >>-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br> >> >><a href=3D" >> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph= >> >>ones-major-disasters-messages"> >> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine= >> >>ss/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages</a><br><br>If you >> dot tru= >> >>st them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you >> agreed= >> >>. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... <br> >> >><br>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. <br><br>ps: >> DTN, I = >> >>did not question yet. <br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On >> Thu, Se= >> >>p 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a >> href=3D"mail= >> >>to:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"> >> [email protected]= >> >></a>></span> wrote:<br> >> >><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 >> .8ex;border-left:1p= >> >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where's your funds to do >> your pla= >> >>n? you havn't answered one songle<br> >> >>objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your >> incorrect<br= >> >>> >> >>views about disasters and about our networks.<br> >> >><br> >> >>so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.<br> >> >>1. how many do you need<br> >> >>2. what is their cost<br> >> >>3. how are you doing spectrum allocation<br> >> >>4. how long do their power sources last<br> >> >>5. what are your plans for maintenance<br> >> >>6. how often are they deployed?<br> >> >>what if you get repeated disasters E.g.<br> >> >>hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)<br> >> >>7. =A0what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons<br> >> >><br> >> >><br> >> >>by the way, you said MANET again -<br> >> >>I said we modified this 12 years back or<br> >> >>more to do DTN -<br> >> >>please stop repeateing incorrect<br> >> >>ideas YOU have that I didnt say.<br> >> >><br> >> >>you are confused.<br> >> >><br> >> >>In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=3D<a href=3D"mailto: >> Oqi__T9T0GEcr= >> >>[email protected]">[email protected] >> </a>>= >> >>, Par<br> >> >>s Mutaf typed:<br> >> >><br> >> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br> >> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br> >> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br> >> >>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected] >> ">Jon.Crowcroft@= >> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> You want to build a standby infrastructure<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> There are lots of ways to do that -<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> One is to build standby cell power<br> >> >>=A0>>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br> >> >>=A0>>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br> >> >>=A0>>> the way the generators at fukushima were)<br> >> >>=A0>>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br> >> >>=A0>>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a >> 100years M= >> >>TBF (fail<br> >> >>=A0>>> defined as >50% of lines down) -<br> >> >>=A0>>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br> >> >>=A0>>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already >> in fac= >> >>t...<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>Cool.<br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one >> whic= >> >>h is parallel in<br> >> >>=A0>>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure >> out ho= >> >>w to get either of<br> >> >>=A0>>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some >> busines= >> >>s model<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> However, its beside the point:<br> >> >>=A0>>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a >> disaster= >> >> zone want to<br> >> >>=A0>>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in >> Johnny Mne= >> >>monic)...<br> >> >>=A0>>> they don't. what they want is to find other people >> _nea= >> >>rby_<br> >> >>=A0>>> who have safe water, dry<br> >> >>=A0>>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>No I don't do this mistake.<br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>***The base station can serve for the calling the >> neighborhood t= >> >>oo***.<br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.<br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>It is not needed as you admitted above.<br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> What people building DTNs<br> >> >>=A0>>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br> >> >>=A0>>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br> >> >>=A0>>> self organising set of people to<br> >> >>=A0>>> self organise opportunistic communication,<br> >> >>=A0>>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br> >> >>=A0>>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later >> usually<br> >> >>=A0>>> (because coming along right away requires you to >> have<br> >> >>=A0>>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br> >> >>=A0>>> go figure out how get that paid for).<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies >> present= >> >> on mail lists -<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own >> error= >> >><br> >> >>=A0>>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online >> fora= >> >> to<br> >> >>=A0>>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - >> that= >> >>9;s obviously<br> >> >>=A0>>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left >> then, t= >> >>hough).<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each >> other= >> >>,<br> >> >>=A0>>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for >> a bit= >> >><br> >> >>=A0>>> while listening to 'Blood' playing<br> >> >>=A0>>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br> >> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D" >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" ta= >> >>rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> Its been, er, virtual...<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"mailto: >> [email protected]">y= >> >>[email protected]</a>>, Par<br> >> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset=3DISO-8859-1<b= >> >>r> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the >> infrastructure, ot= >> >>herwise MANET will only<br> >> >>=A0>>> be<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have >> no id= >> >>ea what to do. I would<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>rather wait for real help instead of >> consuming m= >> >>y battery for trying to<br> >> >>=A0>>> get<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This means that users really have no >> incentive t= >> >>o consume energy for<br> >> >>=A0>>> others<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And >> this= >> >> is what they should do.<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>You can of course try to reach your >> neighbors fo= >> >>r your broken leg,<br> >> >>=A0>>> request<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors >> or ot= >> >>her things, but I am not<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help >> they= >> >> can provide?<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I >> cannot rea= >> >>ch anyone. Some people<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I >> don't= >> >> have this in my pocket.<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Therefore:<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as >> poss= >> >>ible. It will broadcast<br> >> >>=A0>>> an<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>address which everyone can call for real >> help.<b= >> >>r> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It >> is a= >> >>bout education.<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network >> is no= >> >>t robust enough, we may<br> >> >>=A0>>> not<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>even need a balloon:<br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D" >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new= >> >>s-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" >> targ= >> >>et=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p= >> >>hones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br> >> >> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>--<br> >> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" >> target=3D"_blan= >> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >></div></div>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br> >> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; >> charset=3DISO-8859-1<= >> >>br> >> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >></div>=A0>><br><br><div >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&qu= >> >>ot;>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=3D<br> >> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>owcroft <span >> dir=3D3D"ltr">&a= >> >>mp;lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto: >> [email protected]= >> >>.uk">[email protected]</a>"=3D<br> >> >>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto: >> Jon.Crowcrof= >> >>[email protected]">[email protected] >> </a></a>&gt;</span&g= >> >>t; wrote:<br><blo=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>ckquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >> style=3D3D"margin= >> >>:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br> >> >></div>=A0>>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>There are lots of ways to do that -<br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>One is to build standby cell power<br><br> >> >>=A0>>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br><br> >> >>=A0>>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br><br> >> >>=A0>>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br><br> >> >>=A0>>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br><br> >> >>=A0>>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years >> MTBF (= >> >>fail<br><br> >> >>=A0>>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br><br> >> >>=A0>>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br><br> >> >>=A0>>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in >> fact...&= >> >>lt;br></blockq=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. >> <br= >> >>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >> 0.8ex;border-left:1px= >> >> solid rgb(204,204,204)=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>;padding-left:1ex"><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one >> which is = >> >>parallel in=3D<br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure >> out how= >> >> to get either =3D<br> >> >>=A0>>of<br><br> >> >>=A0>>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some >> business mod= >> >>el<br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>However, its beside the point:<br><br> >> >>=A0>>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster >> zone= >> >> want to<br=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny >> Mnemonic= >> >>)...<br><br> >> >>=A0>>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people >> _near= >> >>by_<br><br> >> >>=A0>>who have safe water, dry<br><br> >> >>=A0>>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc >> -<br></blo= >> >>ckquote><div><br>No =3D<br> >> >>=A0>>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The >> base= >> >> station can serve for the =3D<br> >> >>=A0>>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET >> looks= >> >> like nothing but a res=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>earch exercise to me. <br><br> >> >>=A0>><br>It is not needed as you admitted above. >> <br><= >> >>br><br>=3DA0</div><blockquot=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>e class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >> style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0= >> >>pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>What people building DTNs<br><br> >> >>=A0>>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting >> incorrectly)<br><br= >> >>> >> >>=A0>>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br><br> >> >>=A0>>self organising set of people to<br><br> >> >>=A0>>self organise opportunistic communication,<br><br> >> >>=A0>>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br><br> >> >>=A0>>and fixes the infrastructure some while later >> usually<br><= >> >>br> >> >>=A0>>(because coming along right away requires you to >> have<br><= >> >>br> >> >>=A0>>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br><br> >> >>=A0>>go figure out how get that paid for).<br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies >> present = >> >>on mail lists -=3D<br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own >> error<b= >> >>r><br> >> >>=A0>>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora >> to&l= >> >>t;br><br> >> >>=A0>>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - >> that&#39= >> >>;s obviously<br=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left >> then, th= >> >>ough).<br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each >> other,<= >> >>br><br> >> >>=A0>>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a >> bit<b= >> >>r><br> >> >>=A0>>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; >> playing<br><br> >> >>=A0>>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br><br> >> >>=A0>><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D" >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= >> >>=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6= >> >>ZJjt9lg</a>" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D<br> >> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" >> targe= >> >>t=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg >> </a></a>&l= >> >>t;br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>Its been, er, virtual...<br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D3D<a >> href=3D= >> >>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yf18msEv0dg-">yf18msEv0dg-</a>=3D<br> >> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected] >> ">[email protected]= >> >>mail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto: >> [email protected].= >> >>com">[email protected] >> </a></a>&gt;,=3D<br> >> >>=A0>> Par<br><br> >> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>s Mutaf typed:<br><br> >> >>=A0>><br><br> >> >> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br&= >> >>gt;<br> >> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: >> text/plain;= >> >> charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br><br> >> >></div>=A0>><div class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><div >> class=3D3D= >> >>"h5">=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad >> idea:<br&= >> >>gt;<br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the >> infrastructur= >> >>e, otherwise MANET wi=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>ll only be<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who >> have = >> >>no idea what to do. I=3D<br> >> >>=A0>> would<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of >> consum= >> >>ing my battery for tr=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>ying to get<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional >> strangers.<br= >> >>><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no >> incent= >> >>ive to consume energy=3D<br> >> >>=A0>> for others<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real >> help. And= >> >> this is what they sh=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>ould do.<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your >> neighbo= >> >>rs for your broken le=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>g, request<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional >> neighbors = >> >>or other things, but =3D<br> >> >>=A0>>I am not<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real >> help= >> >> they can provide?<br=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I >> canno= >> >>t reach anyone. Some =3D<br> >> >>=A0>>people<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I >> don&= >> >>amp;#39;t have this in my=3D<br> >> >>=A0>> pocket.<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as >> fast as= >> >> possible. It will br=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>oadcast an<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for >> real he= >> >>lp.<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking >> problem. It= >> >> is about education.<=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular >> network = >> >>is not robust enough,=3D<br> >> >>=A0>> we may not<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D" >> http://www.= >> >>trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www= >> >>.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D</a><br> >> >> >>=A0>>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/= >> >>" target=3D3D=3D<br> >> >>=A0>>"_blank"><a href=3D" >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b= >> >>logs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.trust.= >> >>org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D</a><br> >> >> >>=A0>>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><= >> >>;br><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br> >> >> >>=A0>></div></div></blockquote></div><br>= >> >>;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a >> href=3D3D= >> >>"=3D<br> >> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" >> target=3D"_blan= >> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" >> target=3D3D"_blank&q= >> >>uot;><a href=3D"http://www.content-" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.conten= >> >>t-</a>=3D<br> >> >> >> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://based-science.org" >> target=3D"_blank">based-sci= >> >>ence.org</a></a><br><br><br> >> >>=A0>><br> >> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--<br> >> >><br> >> >>=A0cheers<br> >> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br> >> >>=A0 =A0jon<br> >> >><br> >> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a >> href= >> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.cont= >> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br> >> >> >> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0-- >> >> cheers >> >> jon >> >> > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > >