Re: [freenet-dev] Add frost page to Freenet Default Bookmarks

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On Friday 09 April 2010 09:08:18 artur wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> Am 08.04.2010 17:42, schrieb Evan Daniel:
> > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Matthew Toseland
> > <toad-EI5O+8PHWbJeeLb3ft/[email protected]>  wrote:
> >> On Tuesday 06 April 2010 18:17:33 artur wrote:
> ...
> >>
> >> On the other hand, Frost is broken by design, Freetalk will be integra=
ted in the node soon (how soon nobody knows), and if we put it back on the =
homepage the spammer may come out of the woodwork.
> >>
> >> Anyone else have an opinion?
>=20
> Ok, Frost is spamable (like nearly every other communication system in=20
> the internet). So, I would not call this "broken by design", but I know=20
> which problems the spammer caused for frost.

In Freenet terms, spammable is broken by design. This is not people adverti=
sing black market pharmaceuticals. This is a deliberate and effective attem=
pt to make the system completely unusable, at least on target boards. And i=
t can be done anonymously, so the classic countermeasures of blacklisting I=
P addresses etc don't work.
>=20
> > I think if we link to it, we should support it, at least to a point.
> > I'd rather we weren't.  But, we seem to be doing that regardless,
> > so...  OTOH, I think we should have a messaging system of some sort,
> > and that isn't yet Freetalk.  And I don't know whether it's better to
> > link to a messaging system that's so spammed it's unusable, or link to
> > nothing.
>=20
> Do you support Freemail? Freesite? FMS?
> Are you in one way or another connected to the content published on the=20
> various index pages, linked in the default bookmarks?
> I think the freenet authors do not want to associate them self with what=
=20
> is on that pages. The way a search engine does not account them self=20
> responsible for their search results...

We are talking about software here. And no, we don't link directly to quest=
ionable material - we link to index sites e.g. that make it easy for users =
to find what they want to find.
>=20
> Frost is a good tool for Freenet. Without Frost, Freenet would have had=20
> a lot of less active users, an so it would have today.
> It has been the main communication tool within Freenet for years.
>=20
> Today there is a strong alternative with FMS, but I could argue that FMS=
=20
> is brogen by design as well. When Freenet is all about anti censorship,=20
> FMS is the tool to bring it back. I don't want to say it is bad, but it=20
> has its own disadvantages.

=46reetalk and FMS both use a distributed reputation system supporting "neg=
ative trust". This makes it possible to block spam very effectively, becaus=
e a new user who posts spam can be blocked by a few people who see it and t=
hen nobody will see the new user any more. There are alternatives that may =
be more acceptable, and implementing these will not be difficult - it's jus=
t not a priority for anyone actually working on this stuff at the moment. T=
he main alternative is to have a "positive trust" system. This would mean t=
hat new users don't show up at all until the user has gained some trust fro=
m others, so we would need either new users to show up to everyone (meaning=
 if a spammer is creating new identities to spam they have to be blocked on=
e at a time by *each user*), or that they would show up to some subset of e=
veryone - e.g. maybe the people whose captchas they solve and those who tru=
st them.
>=20
> Frost is also a download manager.=20

I was under the impression that the Frost download system was DoS'ed at the=
 moment, i.e. out of action due to exploitation of the fact that it is fund=
amentally broken.

> Fuqid might do a better job as a stand =20
> alone tool, but it is not cross platform, has never been really Freenet=20
> 0.7 compatible and its development has been abandoned.

So use Thaw. It's a perfectly good download manager, even if you don't find=
 the indexes easy to deal with.

> (Just in comparison: Frost has had 17 Commits last month.)
> And a good download tool is wanted by the community (1)

There is no such thing at the moment, sadly. Frost certainly isn't it. Thaw=
 isn't it. Maybe we will have a good download tool based on WoT sometime so=
on.
>=20
> Freetalk: Frost will also work as a Freetalk frontend. So, introducing=20
> the more spam resistent freetalk will not make Frost obsolete. The=20
> integration is not yet complete, but the basics have already been=20
> implemented...

Even if we bundle Frost, very few new users will realise it exists and ther=
efore very few of them will use it. It is much better to have a chat system=
 that is integrated and works out of the box. This is what the uservoice en=
try about "one UI for all" is about.
>=20
> (1)=20
> http://freenet.uservoice.com/forums/8861-general/suggestions/156393-write=
=2Da-killer-file-sharing-application?ref=3Dtitle
>=20
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> artur

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