Re: excessive cruelty (was Re: News Flash: Link application received for vealchop.nj.us.blitzed.org)

On 12 May 2005, at 13:42, Andy Smith wrote:

> Assuming you meant for this to go to the list...
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2005 at 11:55:23AM +0100, Kevin Mulligan wrote:
>> On 12 May 2005, at 09:49, Andy Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, May 11, 2005 at 10:50:36PM +0100, Kevin Mulligan wrote:
>>>> I object to the name of this server because veal production involves
>>>> extreme and excessive cruelty to calves.
>>>
>>> All animal products involve excessive cruelty to animals since
>>> animal products are for the most part easy to do without.
>>
>> That's untrue.  If an animal dies of natural causes and its meat (an
>> animal product) is used, this is not excessively cruel.
>
> Are there any animal products that are supplied by animals naturally
> dying or providing the resource of their own free will?

I can think of no resource which is provided with free will by anyone 
other than humans (blood, hair, organs).  I don't believe that enough 
is understood about animal behavior to know whether they are providing 
a resource of their own free will or not.  Chickens will certainly lay 
unfertilized eggs without being forced or asked.

> Please note that if it involves keeping animals in captivity to
> provide it then it isn't by their own free will..

If somebody keeps chickens as pets and the chickens happen to lay eggs 
(provide) are you saying that this is not of their own free will even 
though they would do this in the wild?

>
>> I am shocked and disappointed that you would make such a huge
>> generalization.
>
> It is a generalisation but I can't really think of anything which
> goes against it.

See chickens above.

>
>> I saw a documentary about a fanatical chicken lover on
>> BBC 4 who kept lots of chickens as pets and ate them/used their
>> feathers when they died.
>
> Fine if he rescues the chickens and doesn't breed them.
>
> If he breeds them for this purpose then he is no better than anyone
> who breeds animals for a living and keeps them in captivity.

It was a she, and I don't think she bred them.  She just had a huge 
plot of land where they basically just herded around and minded their 
own business.  If they bred, they bred.  It would be wrong to stop 
animals from reproducing.

>
>> There are many examples of situations where
>> animal products can be obtained without involving excessive cruelty.
>
> Such as?

Sheep's wool, if a sheep isn't shorn it gets very hot and uncomfortable 
and can be more prone to parasites.  When elephants and other tusked 
animals die their tusks can be removed and traded.  This was originally 
the practice until poachers began to get greedy and started killing 
elephants purely for their ivory.

Virtually every animal product can also be obtained after the natural 
death of the animal although because large animals in Britain don't 
tend to roam around in the wild the opportunity to harvest product from 
an animal which has died a natural death isn't regularly present.

>
> Road kill is about the only example I can think of, but I wouldn't
> really call it an animal product. Logically it is an animal product
> of course but to my mind the term "product" in this context implies
> a fairly guaranteed supply.

A product is defined as "something produced by human or mechanical 
effort or by a natural process" by answers.com.  I don't believe it has 
anything to do with being a guaranteed supply.  If something is 
regularly produced then it will be regularly supplied, but nobody said 
anything about that.

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