Re: Improving the WHOIS format
Dwayne Henderson <[email protected]> Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:26:11 +0100
| Newsgroups | gmane.network.irc.irssi.user |
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| Message-ID | <CAOOO88C0dEArmLkaw5_jVwGTYzRYhGxQ7SB+bg7HHV+FVZFFTw@mail.gmail.com> |
--000e0cdfd2e02e179804b67c1621 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pretty decent response David! Respect! On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 8:44 AM, David Romano < [email protected]> wrote: > Dwayne Henderson wrote on Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 09:00:07PM MST: > > You're the one all of a sudden arguing that acronyms don't always ha= ve > > to be uppercase. I was just playing along. > Fair enough and thanks for being good-natured. But my argument wasn't tha= t > acronyms don't have to be uppercase, but two-fold: > 1) Acronyms in typography can change over time. > 2) A word and an acronym can be condensed to suit the purpose. > In hindsight, I could have presented those two parts of the argument more > clearly, but I still stand by both and think that a change from 'IRCname' > to 'IRC > Name' is unwarranted. I disagree that a term needs to be in a > /usr/share/dict/words to be useful and be rich with meaning, and at least > one > other brought up the issue of parsing: having the IRC name be compressed > down > do one term makes it easy to split on whitespace. > You're right about 1 and 2. But from what I've seen, this happens more often than not if the acronym is pronouncable, unlike IRC. Furthermore, joining it together with "name" just to be easier read by machines, I think, fails to address the fact that Irssi was designed for humans. Now that I think about it though, wouldn't "Real name" be more appropriate as it corresponds to Irssi's real_name? By the way, dict <http://www.dict.org> is a tool that searches the world's most popular dictionaries and has nothing to do with /usr/share/dict/words. > > No, I wrote: It's not a typographical error if it's intentional. > > Don't take > > "typographical error" to mean a rule on grammar. > > > > Right. > My reference to Strunk and White was to being prescriptivist in general, > not > that a rule of grammar is the same as a "typographical error" as you seem > to > have taken it. > > My position is that it's a misuse of "to", not ungrammatical. It's jus= t > > not something regular people would use on a regular basis. It sounds > > unnatural. Maybe it's different where you come from, I don't know. > > If X and Y were to be objects on the other hand, say for instance in > > the world of object-oriented programming, that would be different. > That's the problem: your position is arguing that English is a certain wa= y > and > it's simply wrong. My saying that isn't being prescriptivist; I'm > describing > what occurs in English, not just in one geolocality, but over time and > space. > I totally get how language changes over time due to popular culture and what not, but we're talking about right here, right now. I'm no prescriptivist either. I mean, I speak ebonics most of the time. Nah mean? I can see your point that it could be just where I come from, and that woul= d > be a dialect (or, if it's just me, an idiolect), but that's simply not > true. > From oed.com, the primary sense of example usages of 'join': > trans. To put together, to unite one thing to another, in any kind of > connection physical or immaterial. > 1. a. To put (things) together, so that they become physically united > or > continuous; to fasten, attach, connect, unite (one thing to > another); also, to connect by means of something intervening or > attached to each, e.g. two islands by a bridge. > 1297 R. Gloucester's Chron. (Rolls) 1616 [Th]e soule > [th]oru godes > grace out of helle he bro[z]te, & to is bodi is ioinede= , > & > [z]ef him cristendom. > a1382 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) (Douce 369(1)) (1850) Job xli.= 7 > Oon to oon is ioyned. > c1440 Promp. Parv. 264/1 Ioynyn, or ionyon, jungo, compagin= o. > 1483 Cath. Angl. 199/2 To Iunge (A. Iune), adiungere, > apponere. > 1613 S. Purchas Pilgrimage 876 Some of them are...strangel= y > ioyned without morter. > 1615 G. Sandys Relation of Journey 120 Onely a lake when t= he > River overfloweth; joyned thereunto by a chanell. > 1617 F. Moryson Itinerary i. 77 Consisting of many Ilands > joyned with Bridges. > 1713 Pope Windsor-Forest 17 Oceans join whom they did firs= t > divide. > 1726 J. Leoni tr. L. B. Alberti Archit. II. 114/1 Joyn the > ends of the Timbers together. > 1825 =E2=80=98J. Nicholson=E2=80=99 Operative Mechanic 567 = Fig. 569 shews > how > two pieces may be joined by=E2=80=A5a niche. > 1885 H. W. Watson & S. H. Burbury Math. Theory Electr. & Mag= n. > I. 244 The pairs are said to be joined in series. > > Note that five of those do not use a preposition with 'join' and the rest > (seven) do. The first reference to 'join' in 1297 A.D. actually uses > 'join' in > the same way that Irssi does: in the passive with the preposition 'to'. I= n > that case, it's also used for people not objects. > Your 1297 reference is irrelevant though. That "the soul is joined to his body" is a perfectly reasonable use of "join to" - as in becoming attached to something. % googlecount "join us" "join us": 41,400,000 % googlecount "join to us" "join to us": 6,580 % googlecount "join our table" "join our table": 1,110 % googlecount "join to our table" "join to our table": 1 % googlecount "join a group" "join a group": 646,000 % googlecount "join to a group" "join to a group": 876 % googlecount "join a channel" "join a channel": 4,300 % googlecount "join to a channel" "join to a channel": 122 % googlecount "join me" "join me": 3,260,000 % googlecount "join to me" "join to me": 1,830 % googlecount "join yourself to me" "join yourself to me": 15 "Everyone join to me! About Me: My name is Natasha. I'm 20 years old girl who like ..." Right. Next result. "Join to me facebook!! !!Join to me facebook!! - p. Agar aap facebook me ho to mujhe bhi apna dost samzkar facebook me bhi apna dost banav. facebook ..." --Dwayne http://wearebuild.com +44(0)208 521 1040 (Vimeo<http://vimeo.com/wearebuild/videos> ) --000e0cdfd2e02e179804b67c1621 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pretty decent response David! Respect!<br><br>On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 8:44 = AM, David Romano <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:david.romano%2Birs= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a= >></span> wrote:<br> <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi= n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Dwayne Henderson wrote on Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 09:00:07PM MST:<br> <div>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0You're the one all of a sudden arguing that acro= nyms don't always have<br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be uppercase. I was just playing along.<br> </div>Fair enough and thanks for being good-natured. But my argument wasn&#= 39;t that<br> acronyms don't have to be uppercase, but two-fold:<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A01) Acronyms in typography can change over time.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A02) A word and an acronym can be condensed to suit the purpose= .<br> In hindsight, I could have presented those two parts of the argument more<b= r> clearly, but I still stand by both and think that a change from 'IRCnam= e' to 'IRC<br> Name' is unwarranted. I disagree that a term needs to be in a<br> /usr/share/dict/words to be useful and be rich with meaning, and at least o= ne<br> other brought up the issue of parsing: having the IRC name be compressed do= wn<br> do one term makes it easy to split on whitespace.<br></blockquote><div><br>= You're right about 1 and 2. But from what I've seen, this happens m= ore often than not if the acronym is pronouncable, unlike IRC. Furthermore,= joining it together with "name" just to be easier read by machin= es, I think, fails to address the fact that Irssi was designed for humans.<= br> <br>Now that I think about it though, wouldn't "Real name" be= more appropriate as it corresponds to Irssi's real_name?<br><br>By the= way, <a href=3D"http://www.dict.org">dict</a> is a tool that searches the = world's most popular dictionaries and has nothing to do with /usr/share= /dict/words. <br> <br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;b= order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div><br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, I wrote: It's not a typographical error if= it's intentional.<br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Don't take<br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"typographical error" to mean a rule on = grammar.<br> ><br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0Right.<br> </div>My reference to Strunk and White was to being prescriptivist in gener= al, not<br> that a rule of grammar is the same as a "typographical error" as = you seem to<br> have taken it.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu= ote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20= 4);padding-left:1ex"> <div>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0My position is that it's a misuse of "to&qu= ot;, not ungrammatical. It's just<br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0not something regular people would use on a regular basis= . It sounds<br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0unnatural. Maybe it's different where you come from, = I don't know.<br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0If X and Y were to be objects on the other hand, say for = instance in<br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0the world of object-oriented programming, that would be d= ifferent.<br> </div>That's the problem: your position is arguing that English is a ce= rtain way and<br> it's simply wrong. My saying that isn't being prescriptivist; I'= ;m describing<br> what occurs in English, not just in one geolocality, but over time and spac= e.<br></blockquote><div><br>I totally get how language changes over time du= e to popular=20 culture and what not, but we're talking about right here, right now. I&= #39;m no prescriptivist either. I mean, I speak ebonics most of the time. N= ah mean?<br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt= 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> I can see your point that it could be just where I come from, and that woul= d<br> be a dialect (or, if it's just me, an idiolect), but that's simply = not true.<br> From <a href=3D"http://oed.com" target=3D"_blank">oed.com</a>, the primary = sense of example usages of 'join':<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0trans. To put together, to unite one thing to another, in any= kind of<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0connection physical or immaterial.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A01. a. =C2=A0To put (things) together, so that they become phy= sically united or<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 continuous; to fasten, attach, connect,= unite (one thing to<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 another); also, to connect by means of = something intervening or<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attached to each, e.g. two islands by a= bridge.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1297 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R. Gloucester's C= hron. (Rolls) 1616 =C2=A0 [Th]e soule [th]oru godes<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 grace out o= f helle he bro[z]te, & to is bodi is ioinede, &<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [z]ef him c= ristendom.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a1382 =C2=A0 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) (= Douce 369(1)) (1850) Job xli. 7<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Oon to oon = is ioyned.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 c1440 =C2=A0 Promp. Parv. 264/1 =C2=A0 = Ioynyn, or ionyon, jungo, compagino.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1483 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cath. Angl. 199/2 =C2= =A0 To Iunge (A. Iune), adiungere,<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 apponere.<b= r> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1613 =C2=A0 =C2=A0S. Purchas Pilgrimage= 876 =C2=A0 Some of them are...strangely<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ioyned with= out morter.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1615 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G. Sandys Relation of= Journey 120 =C2=A0 Onely a lake when the<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 River overf= loweth; joyned thereunto by a chanell.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1617 =C2=A0 =C2=A0F. Moryson Itinerary = i. 77 =C2=A0 Consisting of many Ilands<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 joyned with= Bridges.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1713 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pope Windsor-Forest 1= 7 =C2=A0 Oceans join whom they did first<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 divide.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1726 =C2=A0 =C2=A0J. Leoni tr. L. B. Al= berti Archit. II. 114/1 =C2=A0 Joyn the<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ends of the= Timbers together.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1825 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=98J. Nicholson= =E2=80=99 Operative Mechanic 567 =C2=A0 Fig. 569 shews how<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 two pieces = may be joined by=E2=80=A5a niche.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1885 =C2=A0 =C2=A0H. W. Watson & S.= H. Burbury Math. Theory Electr. & Magn.<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I. 244 The = pairs are said to be joined in series.<br> <br> Note that five of those do not use a preposition with 'join' and th= e rest<br> (seven) do. The first reference to 'join' in 1297 A.D. actually use= s 'join' in<br> the same way that Irssi does: in the passive with the preposition 'to&#= 39;. In<br> that case, it's also used for people not objects.<br></blockquote><div>= <br>Your 1297 reference is irrelevant though. That "the soul is joined= to his body" is a perfectly reasonable use of "join to" - a= s in becoming attached to something.<br> <br>% googlecount "join us"<br>"join us": 41,400,000<br= ><br>% googlecount "join to us"<br>"join to us": 6,580<= br><br>% googlecount "join our table"<br>"join our table&quo= t;: 1,110<br> <br>% googlecount "join to our table"<br>=C2=A0"join to our = table": 1<br><br>% googlecount "join a group"<br>"join = a group": 646,000<br><br>% googlecount "join to a group"<br>= "join to a group": 876<br> <br>% googlecount "join a channel"<br>"join a channel":= 4,300<br><br>% googlecount "join to a channel"<br> "join to a channel": 122<br><br>% googlecount "join me"= <br>"join me": 3,260,000<br><br>% googlecount "join to me&qu= ot;<br>"join to me": 1,830<br> <br>% googlecount "join yourself to me"<br>"join yourself to= me": 15<br><br>"Everyone join to me! About Me: My name is Natash= a. I'm 20 years old girl who like ..."<br><br>Right. Next result.<= br> <br> "Join to me facebook!! !!Join to me facebook!! - p. Agar aap facebook = me ho to mujhe bhi apna dost samzkar facebook me bhi apna dost banav. faceb= ook ..."<br><br>--Dwayne<br><a href=3D"http://wearebuild.com/" target= =3D"_blank">http://wearebuild.com</a> <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%280%29208%20521%= 201040" value=3D"+442085211040" target=3D"_blank">+44(0)208 521 1040</a> (<= a href=3D"http://vimeo.com/wearebuild/videos" target=3D"_blank">Vimeo</a>)<= br> </div></div> --000e0cdfd2e02e179804b67c1621--