Re: Proposal: rel="payment"

OK, we shall have to agree to differ.  I have expressed my concern
and doubt. Good luck with the proposal.

With respect,

Steven



Joshua Kinberg wrote ..
> If I feel like I'm being spammed by an RSS feed, why would I continue
> to subscribe?
> 
> > I have enough of a challenge filtering out the advertizing people
> > are putting in feeds.
> 
> Why filter out adverts? If they're in the feed, then the publisher
> obviously wants them there. If the reader objects, then they should
> not subscribe.
> 
> > By resource link I mean the link to the resource :-) - the RSS
> > item. If you want to get paid for something that you put in
> > an enclosure then you need to wrap the feed in a subscription
> > in my view or add something in the description.
> > 
> > Paid subscription to feeds is something that the aggregators
> > need to work out - it doesn't belong in RSS IMO.
> 
> Just so we're clear here, paid subscription (i.e. restricted access)
> is different.
> rel="payment" is not that.
> 
> -Josh
> 
> 
> On 7/31/05, Steven Ericsson-Zenith <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 
> > I may have no problem with supporting it in my aggregator either at
> > http://www.firstsay.com - as to the commercial aggregators you mention,
> > that's nice, though your list does not include Bloglines and Newsgator
> > and I'll believe it when I see it.  It still does not address the
> > question of will anyone use it (which I clearly doubt).
> > 
> > My concern with it is that it seems the obvious target of abuse
> > by spammers - so I probably would not support it until I see it
> > proven out and I really don't think it is a good idea to motivate
> > spammers to abuse RSS.
> > 
> > I have enough of a challenge filtering out the advertizing people
> > are putting in feeds.
> > 
> > By resource link I mean the link to the resource :-) - the RSS
> > item. If you want to get paid for something that you put in
> > an enclosure then you need to wrap the feed in a subscription
> > in my view or add something in the description.
> > 
> > Paid subscription to feeds is something that the aggregators
> > need to work out - it doesn't belong in RSS IMO.
> > 
> > With respect,
> > Steven
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Joshua Kinberg wrote ..
> > > > I really don't buy this argument.  I've read the proposal. I would
> not
> > > > expect any commercial aggregator to support the feature unless there
> > > > is a way for them to get paid - and I do not see that.
> > >
> > > Wrong. FireANT (the aggregator I am helping develop) will support.
> > > Web based aggregators like MeFeedia, 49Media, and RSSBazaar are
> > > already supporting. Yahoo! and FeedBurner have already pledged
> > > support.
> > >
> > > > The right way to do this in my view is for the resource link to manage
> > > > any payment/permission requirement or the resource itself to offer
> > > > an opportunity to donate.
> > >
> > > I don't quite understand what you're saying? What are you terming as
> > > the "resource link"?
> > >
> > > > I understand what you are trying to do but I would not expect it
> to
> > > > prove useful or be widely adopted.  I really doubt that anyone would
> > > > use the mechanism at the feed navigation level.
> > >
> > > Ummm, look how many bloggers use tip jars. What about fundraising
> > > campaigns for politics and social causes? How about product reviews
> > > and affilliate links? Cafe Press shops? All these ways to get paid
> are
> > > already widely used. Why not make those relationships explicit in the
> > > feed and in the HTML?
> > >
> > > -josh
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/31/05, Steven Ericsson-Zenith <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I really don't buy this argument.  I've read the proposal. I would
> not
> > > > expect any commercial aggregator to support the feature unless there
> > > > is a way for them to get paid - and I do not see that.
> > > >
> > > > The right way to do this in my view is for the resource link to manage
> > > > any payment/permission requirement or the resource itself to offer
> > > > an opportunity to donate.
> > > >
> > > > I understand what you are trying to do but I would not expect it
> to
> > > > prove useful or be widely adopted.  I really doubt that anyone would
> > > > use the mechanism at the feed navigation level.
> > > >
> > > > With respect,
> > > >
> > > > Steven
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Joshua Kinberg wrote ..
> > > > > rel="payment" does not entail payment as restriction to access.
> > > > > It simplly defines a location where some form of payment is accepted.
> > > > > This is completely open ended... it could be an affillliate link
> as
> > > > > described previously, a tip jar link, a link to donate to some
> other
> > > > > cause such as a "Tsunami Relief Fund," etc...
> > > > >
> > > > > By explicitly defining a payment link in this way, aggregators
> can
> > > > > display a custom payment button that points to the payment location.
> > > > >
> > > > > As with any microformat, this simply makes implicit relationships
> more
> > > > > explicit.
> > > > >
> > > > > See a more detailed proposal on the format here:
> > > > > http://videovertigo.org/information/relpayment/
> > > > >
> > > > > See the original conception of the format here (with video):
> > > > > http://www.momentshowing.net/momentshowing/2005/07/video_relpaymen.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's further explanation from Peter Van Dijk, creator of the
> > > > > videoblog aggregator MeFeedia, on how MeFeedia supports rel="payment":
> > > > > http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2005/07/18/2767/
> > > > >
> > > > > And here is a more detailed technical spec on the HTML syntax for
> rel="payment":
> > > > > http://videovertigo.org/wiki/index.php/RelPayment
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -Josh
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/31/05, Steven Ericsson-Zenith <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have to say that I am a little confused by this proposasl and
> this
> > > > > > use case.  So let me ask the obvious question:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why wouldn't the link to the "commodity described" simply take
> care
> > > > > > of this?  After-all, one assumes you would have to check for
> the
> > > > > > payment/permission to access in anycase.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see no reason whatsoever, for this property - have I missed
> > > > > > something?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With respect,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steven
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [email protected] wrote ..
> > > > > > > Joshua Kinberg <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What do you think of the application of rel="payment" to
> a
> > > feed
> > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > mine (where the rel="payment" link goes to a purchase page
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > commodity described by the feed entry)?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is exactly one of the use cases we had in mind
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > OK, that's good.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [snip]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now... a more technical question: It seems that it would
> be silly
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > limit the use of the rel="payment" element to one per RSS
> item.
> > > As
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > example, I might compare several products in a blog entry
> and
> > > wish
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > include payment links for all of them. So how should an aggregator
> > > > > > > > deal with the existence of multiple payment links?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It should display them all, no?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The real question is whether it's legal to have multiple <atom:link>
> > > > > > > elements with the same relation, media type and language. 
> From
> > > a quick
> > > > > > > look at the most recent draft, I see nothing forbidding it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ideally, if there were more than one, you'd want to be able
> to
> > > give
> > > > > each
> > > > > > > rel="payment" link a title attribute, say (or string content
> to
> > > be
> > > > > > > interpreted as a title).  I'm not sure if either of those are
> legal
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > an extension, but I'm no expert here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Peter
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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