RE: Vermont...secede

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I'm just not sure I understand what the advantages to seceding would be: Our
highways (already shitty) would fall into utter disrepair, Our taxes would
either increase rapidly to support a growing military infrastructure or we'd
have no military and the secession would be a moot point, and we would have
no centers of industry. Top this off with the fact that almost all Vermont
businesses succeed by marketing to out-of-state demographics, meaning that
the trade embargoes imposed by an (justifiably) angry federal government
would drive out much of the existing economic infrastructure. With not
nearly enough livestock farming in the state to support an closed economy,
Vermont would quickly turn into a Stalingrad-circa-WWII situation. 
 
Not only that, but what system would we institute that would be so radically
different from our current one? Vermont gets back more than they put in to
the federal government. History certainly looks kindly on non-revolutions
like the American Revolution, where we traded English tyrants for American
ones, but the realistic differences are negligible. We would be doing pretty
much the same thing here - There would be no way to reach consensus for a
new government structure, with the Take Back Vermont people and the Take
Vermont Forward people still being very much against each other, even if the
original reason for the animosity has simmered down somewhat. The same
system, with the same divisions and alliances, would spring up. So what
would we do? Make Dean our King? Or Douglas the Emperor? How about Pollina
as Politbureau Chief Executive? Regardless of who you put in there, nothing
will change except for our access to goods. The things that were listed in
the email as consequences for secession are also pipe dreams. Nice thoughts,
but pipe dreams:
 
True civil rights: How's that? Make sure the one black guy in Vermont has a
job? We are already a socially progressive state, allowing civil unions
without so much as a blip on the radar to coincide with the national
"I-hate-gay-people" movement rooted in John Ashcroft's fear of heathens. A
secession is not going to improve things any.
 
 no more wars on nouns: Dude, the nouns deserve it. I hate people, places,
and things. Kill 'em all and let Daniel Webster sort 'em out.
 
 no more wal-mart (but only because people just decide not to shop there):
Once again, we'll be poor. I don't think people think Wal-Mart is any great
shakes, they just know it's cheap and it's got everything. If they could
shop for their clothes at Lord & Taylor, they would. The only way to stop
Wal-Mart is to increase the public's income to the point where they don't
NEED them. If anything, we'd become a Wal-Mart nation-state.
 
 no more "2" party system: Vermont's third party, the Progs, have taken a
few losses lately, with Clavelle going asinine and the whole
"third-parties-steal-elections" rhetoric going around Dean's home state.
Vermont's no closer to having a valid third party than anywhere else - we
just have a few democrats who actually go further left (GASP!) than liberal.
Yes, they're all in the state house, not federal, but even still, the
moderates rule the day here.

smaller government: Can't argue with you there. But smaller isn't
necessarily better - the devil's in the details.
 
 a currency backed by something of real value (something tangible!): What,
maple syrup? We HAVE nothing valuable. Since Bellows Falls and Springfield
lost their machining in the '70s, Essex has lost much of it's IBM
employment, and the International Airport is the largest employer in
Burlington proper, where do the goods come from? What do we trade with? Most
businesses in Vermont gain a profit margin based on intellectual property
and knowledge - if they're not allowed to trade these skills with the
diverse and wide-spread businesses that buy them currently, how will they
stay above water?
 
 premium education for all: Where will the educators come from? We already
have one of the worst educational systems in the country, and (speaking as a
product of it) much of that problem lies in the fact that we're too poor to
pay for the good stuff. With dropping tax revenues, where will it come from?
 
 airwaves owned by the public : You may be right, here, and this would
undoubtedly be a good thing, but how long would it last? Where would the
energy to power the radio transmitters come from? (wind power) where would
the turbines be built? (water power) Where is there enough pressure to
create dams to power the entire state? (Vermont Yankee Nuclear) Do you want
a nuclear power plant in our utopia? Not only that, the government would
bomb us to shit before they let a rogue state like us have a nuke plant
filled to the brim with refined uranium...
 
I took Frank Bryan's class. He makes a lot of good points, but most of his
arguments lack the critical element, economics, which make the whole thing
go. I'm no capitalist by any means, but I do accept that there are certain
neccessities that, in a global economy, you need money to get. There are a
multitude of social reasons to go away from the federal government, but
that's not why we're with them in the first place. We're in a marriage of
convenience, here: We certainly don't love the federal government, but
without them, we don't eat, we don't have power, and we can't defend
ourselves (which we'd really only have to do if we seceded, anyway). 
 
Oh, and by the way, Mike - do you remember me? We used to work in the ninth
circle of hell (aka Vertek) together...
 
-A(m)

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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004>I'm just not sure I understand what the =
advantages to=20
seceding would be: Our highways (already shitty) would fall into utter=20
disrepair, Our taxes would either increase rapidly to support a growing =
military=20
infrastructure or we'd have no military and the secession would be a =
moot point,=20
and we would have no centers of industry. Top this off with the fact =
that almost=20
all Vermont businesses succeed by marketing to out-of-state =
demographics,=20
meaning that the trade embargoes imposed by an (justifiably) angry =
federal=20
government would drive out much of the existing economic infrastructure. =
With=20
not <EM>nearly</EM> enough livestock farming in the state to support an =
closed=20
economy, Vermont would quickly turn into a Stalingrad-circa-WWII =
situation.=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004>Not only that, but what system would we =
institute that=20
would be so radically different from our current one? Vermont gets=20
back&nbsp;more than they put in to the federal government.&nbsp;History=20
certainly looks kindly on non-revolutions like the American Revolution, =
where we=20
traded English tyrants for American ones, but the realistic differences =
are=20
negligible. We would be doing pretty much the same thing here - There =
would be=20
no way to reach consensus for a new government structure, with the Take =
Back=20
Vermont people and the Take Vermont Forward people still being very much =
against=20
each other, even if the original reason for the animosity has simmered =
down=20
somewhat. The same system, with the same divisions and alliances, would =
spring=20
up.&nbsp;So what would we do? Make Dean our King? Or Douglas the =
Emperor? How=20
about Pollina as Politbureau Chief Executive? Regardless of who you put =
in=20
there, nothing will change except for our access to goods. The things =
that were=20
listed in the email as consequences for secession are also pipe dreams. =
Nice=20
thoughts, but pipe dreams:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>True=20
civil rights<SPAN class=3D063045919-02092004>: How's that? Make sure the =
one black=20
guy in Vermont has a job? We are already a socially progressive state, =
allowing=20
civil unions without so much as a blip on the radar to coincide with the =

national "I-hate-gay-people" movement rooted in&nbsp;John Ashcroft's =
fear of=20
heathens. A secession is not going to improve things=20
any.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>&nbsp;no more wars=20
on nouns<SPAN class=3D063045919-02092004>: Dude, the nouns deserve it. I =
hate=20
people, places, <EM>and</EM> things. Kill 'em all and let Daniel Webster =
sort=20
'em out.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT><SPAN =
class=3D063045919-02092004></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;no more wal-mart =
(but only=20
because people just decide not to shop there)<SPAN =
class=3D063045919-02092004>:=20
Once again, we'll be poor. I don't think people think Wal-Mart is any =
great=20
shakes, they just know it's cheap and it's got everything. If they could =
shop=20
for their clothes at Lord &amp; Taylor, they would. The only way to stop =

Wal-Mart is to increase the public's income to the point where they =
don't NEED=20
them. If anything, we'd become a Wal-Mart=20
nation-state.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;no more "2" party system<SPAN =
class=3D063045919-02092004>: Vermont's=20
third party, the Progs, have taken a few losses lately, with Clavelle =
going=20
asinine and the whole "third-parties-steal-elections" rhetoric going =
around=20
Dean's home state. Vermont's no closer to having a valid third party =
than=20
anywhere else - we just have a few democrats who actually go further =
left=20
(GASP!) than liberal.&nbsp;Yes, they're all in the state house, not =
federal, but=20
even still, the moderates rule the day=20
here.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
size=3D2>smaller government<SPAN class=3D063045919-02092004>: Can't =
argue with you=20
there. But smaller isn't necessarily better - the devil's in the=20
details.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;a currency backed by something of real value (something=20
tangible!)<SPAN class=3D063045919-02092004>: What, maple syrup? We HAVE =
nothing=20
valuable. Since Bellows Falls and Springfield lost their machining in =
the '70s,=20
Essex has lost much of it's IBM employment, and the International =
Airport is the=20
largest employer in Burlington proper, where do the goods come from? =
What do we=20
trade with? Most businesses in Vermont gain a profit margin based on=20
intellectual property and knowledge - if they're not allowed to trade =
these=20
skills with the diverse and wide-spread businesses that buy them =
currently, how=20
will they stay above water?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;premium education for all<SPAN =
class=3D063045919-02092004>:=20
Where will the educators come from? We already have one of the worst =
educational=20
systems in the country, and (speaking as a product of it) much of that =
problem=20
lies in the fact that we're too poor to pay for the good stuff. With =
dropping=20
tax revenues, where will it come from?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;<FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
size=3D2>airwaves owned by the public<SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004>&nbsp;:&nbsp;You may be right, here, and this =
would=20
undoubtedly be a good thing, but how long would it last? Where would the =
energy=20
to power the radio transmitters come from? (wind power) where would the =
turbines=20
be built? (water power) Where is there enough pressure to create dams to =
power=20
the entire state? (Vermont Yankee Nuclear) Do you want a nuclear power =
plant in=20
our utopia? Not only that, the government would bomb us to shit before =
they let=20
a rogue state like us have a nuke plant filled to the brim with refined=20
uranium...</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004>I took Frank Bryan's class. He makes a lot of =
good=20
points, but most of his arguments lack the critical element, =
<EM>economics</EM>,=20
which make the whole thing go. I'm no capitalist by any means, but I do =
accept=20
that there are certain neccessities that, in a global economy, you need=20
<EM>money</EM> to get. There are a multitude of social reasons to go =
away from=20
the federal government, but that's not why we're with them in the first =
place.=20
We're in a marriage of convenience, here: We certainly don't =
<EM>love</EM> the=20
federal government, but without them, we don't eat, we don't have power, =
and we=20
can't defend ourselves (which we'd really only have to do if we seceded, =

anyway). </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004>Oh, and by the way, Mike - do you remember =
me? We used=20
to work in the ninth circle of hell (aka Vertek)=20
together...</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D063045919-02092004>-A(m)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>=
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