Re: FWB: Foss with benefits
Charles Cossé <[email protected]> Fri, 6 Feb 2015 02:07:11 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.fsf.education.europe |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CABtoULjDy6nHwfcEqQD+sNjbO2vwicFOT+P=k8H1q1VTgaRh3Q@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============2210288344633249069== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2cb90ee260a050e67be70 --001a11c2cb90ee260a050e67be70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, In light of points made in this conversation I spent some time reviewing FSF literature and definitions. At the end of "Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software" <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html> there is the following: Thus, free software activists are well advised to decline to work on an > activity that calls itself =E2=80=9Copen.=E2=80=9D Even if the activity i= s good in and of > itself, each contribution you make does a little harm on the side. (src > <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html>) > At the risk of cluttering simple sentences I have modified my text throughout to read "free/open-source (GPL'd) education software", so as not to preclude anyone from participating or endorsing the project. I also unpublished Asymptopia Software's Facebook page, for my own reasons, namely that it's not helping anything, but noting that it's also consistent with RMS's philosophy. Here is an issue I have with much of what I read today: The notions of fundamental "rights and wrongs" are used often. Personally, I don't believe that there are such things at all ... in the universe. That has nothing to do with software, or religion, or anything except my cosmology. So FSF philosophy alienates me long before considerations of software ... whether I agree with the goals or not. That argument is loaded with implicit assumptions that have nothing to do with software. "Education <https://www.gnu.org/education/>" is at the core of FSF's mission, but it is really just *Computer Science* Education that FSF is referring to, as far as I can tell. Free Software supports education, proprietary software forbids education. = ( > src <https://www.gnu.org/education/>) > If, for example, I were to put a new version of my FSF-listed game TuxMathScrabble online without GPL-ing it, that certainly isn't "forbidding" any education that it was ever intended for, i.e. kids to *use= *. In fact, it's JavaScript, so Computer Science students can even still read the code and learn. Anyway, we share the common goal of wanting to make the world a better place, expand "free" software for education, etc ... so I hope the changes I made, and will continue fine-tuning and cleaning-up tomorrow, will make the project more agreeable to all. Is there any way FSFE and/or other heavyweight organizations reading this could publicly endorse the project at this early stage? Charles On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Charles Coss=C3=A9 <[email protected]> wrote= : > Hi Cecilie, > > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:14 AM, L.Cecilie Wian <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> So had a look at it. >> > > Great!! > >> >> AT: Simple is better, while wanting the parents (users) to be able steer >> the payments to whatever program they prefer is a nice idea, i fear the >> complexity may kill it. >> > > Perhaps ... i did spend some time trying to design usage-tracking > mechanisms into the system and as you observed it got very messy. Maybe = if > other developers with experience here become involved it could work. > Aside from the implementation, though, my biggest concern is being in the > middle of it all, i.e. money considerations. I still have hope that, > implementation-wise, complexity will be lower with direct allocation. Th= is > is at the top of my to-do list, i.e. a stand-alone proof-of-concept of th= e > slider idea. > > > So picking up some experience from other applications: Spotify. The base >> idea is that the artist i play gets the money, in addition they have a >> really intricate payment structure, that i , as the user, never sees. >> > > Keyword: "intricate"! Infrastructure developers would be needed, and > more than welcomed / appreciated. > > > >> Flatter, a system i love the idea of, became to much work, and i forgot >> about it. So how about making it an system setting that can be changed? >> Autodistribute based on usage, and then forced distribution of the user = is >> interested? (what happens if they do not distribute payments?) >> > > Yes, I also came to a similar conclusion ... but using the > slider-distribution idea, and then a "managed auto-distribution" plan if > they (parents) found the former to be too much trouble. > > Detailed tracking seems like it's ripe for exploitation, too. How could > you know if someone were just pumping-up their own usage stats? The > "managed distribution" approach would still involve some tracking, i gues= s, > but hopefully there could be a manageable, less intricate way to implemen= t. > > > > The programs: >> I am mostly curious about your Forced reader. It seems like you got a ne= w >> way of thinking about this. And thats good, this is a difficult problem, >> since, well, making it easy and automated (so the parents have an easy j= ob) >> while still ensure the wanted action is taken. >> > > These are just examples to demonstrate the potential, and that such thing= s > are possible in a web environment, and to inspire others. The take-away > message that I want everyone to get about the programs is that "the sky i= s > the limit". We have a developer trying to make an interactive avatar app > for use with autistic children, and another quiz app which shows painting= s > of famous artists and has the student identify the epoch, etc. > > > The program description, way to long and intricate, i assume it is b/c it >> is a draft, and that you will sharpen it. Take a look at some other proj= ect >> description pages for things backed. Ops! I see you allready lanched the >> kickstarting for this. Can you make changes to the project when it is >> started? >> > > Yes indeed. Just realize that i've been a one-man-band until this point, > as far as websites and community-building ... although that's in the > process of changing. My hope is that we can assemble the 2x communities > and infrastructure such that the whole system will come-together > simultaneously and just function. Is there any way FSFE and/or other > heavyweight organizations reading this could publicly endorse the project > at this early stage? > > Really glad for this discussion so far! Thanks for all the thoughtful > inputs. > > Charles Coss=C3=A9 <http://www.asymptopia.org/AboutAsymptopiaSoftware> > AutoTeach Project <http://www.asymptopia.org/autoteach> > --001a11c2cb90ee260a050e67be70 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi All,<br></div><br>In light of points made in this = conversation I spent some time reviewing FSF literature and definitions.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 At the end of <a href=3D"https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-sour= ce-misses-the-point.html">"Why Open Source misses the point of Free So= ftware"</a> there is the following: <br><br><blockquote style=3D"margi= n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex= " class=3D"gmail_quote">Thus, free software activists are well advised to d= ecline to work on an activity that calls itself =E2=80=9Copen.=E2=80=9D Even if the activity is good in and of itself, each contribution you make does a little harm on the side.=C2=A0 (<a href=3D"https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/o= pen-source-misses-the-point.html">src</a>)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><= div>At the risk of cluttering simple sentences I have modified my text thro= ughout to read "free/open-source (GPL'd) education software",= so as not to preclude anyone from participating or endorsing the project.= =C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div>I also unpublished Asymptopia Software= 's Facebook page, for my own reasons, namely that it's not helping = anything, but noting that it's also consistent with RMS's philosoph= y.=C2=A0 <br><br></div><div>Here is an issue I have with much of what I rea= d today:=C2=A0 The notions of fundamental "rights and wrongs" are= used often.=C2=A0 Personally, I don't believe that there are such thin= gs at all ... in the universe.=C2=A0=C2=A0 That has nothing to do with soft= ware, or religion, or anything except my cosmology.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So FSF phil= osophy alienates me long before considerations of software ... whether I ag= ree with the goals or not.=C2=A0 That argument is loaded with implicit assu= mptions that have nothing to do with software.<br><br></div><div>"<a h= ref=3D"https://www.gnu.org/education/">Education</a>" is at the core o= f FSF's mission, but it is really just <i>Computer Science</i> Educatio= n that FSF is referring to, as far as I can tell.<br></div><div><br><blockq= uote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20= 4);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Free Software=20 supports education, proprietary software forbids education.=C2=A0 (<a href= =3D"https://www.gnu.org/education/">src</a>)<br></blockquote><div><br>If, f= or example, I were to put a new version of my FSF-listed game TuxMathScrabb= le online without GPL-ing it, that certainly isn't "forbidding&quo= t; any education that it was ever intended for, i.e. kids to <i>use</i>. = =C2=A0 In fact, it's JavaScript, so Computer Science students can even = still read the code and learn.=C2=A0 <br><br></div><div>Anyway, we share th= e common goal of wanting to make the world a better place, expand "fre= e" software for education, etc ... so I hope the changes I made, and w= ill continue fine-tuning and cleaning-up tomorrow, will make the project mo= re agreeable to all.=C2=A0 <br><br></div><div>Is there any way FSFE and/or = other heavyweight organizations reading=20 this could publicly endorse the project at this early stage? <br><br></div>= <div>Charles<br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class= =3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Charles Coss=C3=A9 <span d= ir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">ccosse= @gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir= =3D"ltr"><span>Hi Cecilie,</span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:14 AM, L.Cecilie= Wian <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" targ= et=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote = class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol= id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">So had a look at it.= <br></div></blockquote></span><div><br>Great!!<br></div><span class=3D"">= =C2=A0<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b= order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d= iv></div><div>AT: Simple is better, while wanting the parents (users) to be= able steer the payments to whatever program they prefer is a nice idea, i = fear the complexity may kill it.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div= ></span><div>Perhaps ... i did spend some time trying to design usage-track= ing mechanisms into the system and as you observed it got very messy.=C2=A0= Maybe if other developers with experience here become involved it could wo= rk.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Aside from the implementation, though, my biggest concern i= s being in the middle of it all, i.e. money considerations.=C2=A0 I still h= ave hope that, implementation-wise, complexity will be lower with direct al= location.=C2=A0 This is at the top of my to-do list, i.e. a stand-alone pro= of-of-concept of the slider idea.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br><div><span class=3D""><br= ><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo= rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di= v>So picking up some experience from other=20 applications: Spotify. The base idea is that the artist i play gets the=20 money, in addition they have a really intricate payment structure, that i , as the user, never sees. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span>= Keyword: "intricate"!=C2=A0=C2=A0 Infrastructure developers would= be needed, and more than welcomed / appreciated.=C2=A0 <br><br></div><span= class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar= gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1= ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Flatter, a=20 system i love the idea of, became to much work, and i forgot about it.=20 So how about making it an system setting that can be changed?=20 Autodistribute based on usage, and then forced distribution of the user=20 is interested? (what happens if they do not distribute payments?)</div></di= v></blockquote><div>=C2=A0<br></div></span><div>Yes, I also came to a simil= ar conclusion ... but using the slider-distribution idea, and then a "= managed auto-distribution" plan if they (parents) found the former to = be too much trouble.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br><br></div><div>Detailed tracking seems= like it's ripe for exploitation, too.=C2=A0 How could you know if some= one were just pumping-up their own usage stats?=C2=A0 The "managed dis= tribution" approach would still involve some tracking, i guess, but ho= pefully there could be a manageable, less intricate way to implement.<br></= div><div><br><div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><br></div></div><span class=3D""><= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></di= v><div>The programs:</div><div>I am mostly curious about your Forced reader= . It seems like you got a new way of thinking about this. And thats good, t= his is a difficult problem, since, well, making it easy and automated (so t= he parents have an easy job) while still ensure the wanted action is taken.= =C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>These are just ex= amples to demonstrate the potential, and that such things are possible in a= web environment, and to inspire others.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The take-away message = that I want everyone to get about the programs is that "the sky is the= limit".=C2=A0 We have a developer trying to make an interactive avata= r app for use with autistic children, and another quiz app which shows pain= tings of famous artists and has the student identify the epoch, etc.=C2=A0 = <br></div><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0<br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm= ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,= 204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>The program des= cription, way to long and intricate, i assume it is b/c it is a draft, and = that you will sharpen it. Take a look at some other project description pag= es for things backed. Ops! I see you allready lanched the kickstarting for = this. Can you make changes to the project when it is started?=C2=A0</div></= div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Yes indeed.=C2=A0 Just realize = that i've been a one-man-band until this point, as far as websites and = community-building ... although that's in the process of changing.=C2= =A0 My hope is that we can assemble the 2x communities and infrastructure s= uch that the whole system will come-together simultaneously and just functi= on.=C2=A0 Is there any way FSFE and/or other heavyweight organizations read= ing this could publicly endorse the project at this early stage?=C2=A0 <br>= </div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Really glad for this discussion = so far!=C2=A0 Thanks for all the thoughtful inputs.=C2=A0 <br></div><span c= lass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></di= v><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><a href=3D"http://www.asymptopia.org/AboutAsym= ptopiaSoftware" target=3D"_blank">Charles Coss=C3=A9</a><br></div><div clas= s=3D"gmail_quote"><a href=3D"http://www.asymptopia.org/autoteach" target=3D= "_blank">AutoTeach Project</a><br></div></font></span></div></div> </blockquote></div><br></div> --001a11c2cb90ee260a050e67be70-- --===============2210288344633249069== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ European "Free Software in Education" mailing list https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-eu --===============2210288344633249069==--