Re: [needs proofread & IT translation] Refund4Freedom news item

Luca Bonissi <[email protected]> Thu, 29 May 2025 11:22:14 +0200
Newsgroups	gmane.org.fsf.europe.translators
Message-ID	<[email protected]>
Hello all!

Sorry for the big delay... maybe I'm arriving too late, but I'd like to 
highlight a not-so-correct consideration on the second-last paragraph.

It says:

"Some manufacturers have defined better policies and clearer procedures 
for requesting and obtaining refunds, as a similar successful case 
against HP that Luca started in 2019 shows. But for others, consumers 
are forced to engage in persistent correspondence and, in many cases, 
take legal action as a last resort."

Unfortunately, the case against HP was the worst case, where HP do not 
have any written procedure and the policy is simply "DENY REFUND"... :-(
Also from a legal point of view, it was the worst case becase the 
Justice Of Peace did not recognise the court fees (about 60 Euros), so 
at the end I did not practically receive any refund (spent 60 Euros for 
the court case, received 61 Euros as refund...).

And actually only Asus have "better policies and clearer procedures" 
(they do not ask to send the PC for Product Key removal): all others 
manufacturer either not have clear procedures or their policies are unfair.

So I suggest - if possible - to modify the paragraph in this way (if ok, 
please, Richard, could you proofread it?):

"Few manufacturers have defined better policies and clearer procedures 
for requesting and obtaining refunds. But for most others, consumers are 
forced to engage in persistent correspondence and, in many cases, take 
legal action as a last resort, as the [collection of cases started by 
Luca] show."

[Link to collection]: https://bonissi.it/windowsrefund/

Thanks and sorry again for the delay...
   Luca

On 28/05/25 09:50, Ana Galan wrote:
> Hi Richard,
> 
> webpreview is giving us some headaches these last days.
> 
> I added the new suggestions (and the alt text one that I forgot) and all 
> is ready in the same link: https://webpreview.fsfe.org/cgi/fsfe.pl?pad=1467
> 
> I think I went through all except number 6
> 
> 6.  "This offers an alternative to buying a new device when support
> for Windows 10 ends on 14 October 2025."  I suggest replacing "when"
> with "before."  Buying the new device on the deadline date will be too
> late as a practical matter.
> 
> I didn´t replace when for before as the idea is that from 14 October 
> computer users will have to acquire a new laptop if they were using 
> windows 10 (or I guess Windows 11 license if their laptop is powerful 
> enough for it).
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> Ana
> 
> On 5/27/25 16:06, Richard L. Schmeidler wrote:
>> Having sent you extensive suggestions after 4 AM, I am now back at
>> work two hours later to make further suggestions in response to the
>> new webpreview (in English, this time) that you sent so quickly.
>>
>> I have been proofreading the webpreview you sent.  I have not been
>> checking to see whether you adopted my suggestions.  However, several
>> times I have stumbled upon places in the webpreview where I would want
>> to make a suggestion now and I have realized that I already made such
>> a suggestion.
>>
>> There is an oddity of naming.  The webpreview you now sent is
>> https://webpreview.fsfe.org/cgi/fsfe.pl?pad=1467 .  However, this
>> generates an xhtml file with the number 1461.  For clarity, I am
>> designating the xhtml file and the .odt file I am attaching with the
>> number 1467, not 1461 (which was the number associated with the
>> previous version of this news item).
>>
>> 1.  I see that you did not adopt my suggestions (in my previous #2)
>> for changes to the alt text for the first figure.  I still do not know
>> what a "subtration" is, but this is your news item and your figure,
>> not mine.
>>
>> 2.  "it becomes problematic as the cost of the Microsoft Windows
>> license is bundled in without an effective and easy way for the
>> consumers to opt out."  I suggest removing the second occurrence of
>> "the" (before "consumers").  There is no prior reference to consumers,
>> so it is inappropriate to refer to "the consumers."  The reader should
>> have been told which consumers are involved before the definite
>> article "the" is used.  [When I was proofreading an earlier version of
>> this news item last night, I considered making this suggestion, but
>> that version had a reference to consumers that was present in the last
>> sentence of the previous paragraph (and has been replaced by a
>> reference to "users" in the present version).  So I accepted the
>> presence of "the" in that earlier version, where I think that "the"
>> should be removed from the present version.]
>>
>> 3.  I see that the new version retains the two sentences run together
>> (without a space between them) that I pointed out in my previous #6:
>> "This standardized practice not only adds extra costs for the
>> consumers, if they do not want that pre-installed software, but also
>> comes with another issue: the hardship of saying no to it and getting
>> a refund.Forcing consumers to buy software every time they acquire a
>> new device without the possibility to reject the software bundling is
>> against Device Neutrality."  I assume that this was an oversight; I
>> cannot imagine a reason for choosing to do this.
>>
>> 4.  "Help consumers to get a refund of the Windows License when buying
>> a new device."  I suggest inserting "cost of the" before "Windows."
>> [I missed this last night.  Sorry.]
>>
>> 5.  "Refund4Freedom is inserted in a broader set of activities aiming
>> at end-users rights."
>>
>> (a)  I suggest replacing "inserted in" with "one of."  English usage.
>>
>> (b)  I suggest replacing "aiming at" with something like "promoting."
>> Other phrasing is possible.  My reasoning is that in English, "aiming
>> at" can have both positive and negative connotations.  As a notable
>> example, one aims a gun at something to destroy it.
>>
>> (c)  Replace "end-users" with "end-users'."  The possessive form of 
>> the plural.
>>
>> 6.  "This offers an alternative to buying a new device when support
>> for Windows 10 ends on 14 October 2025."  I suggest replacing "when"
>> with "before."  Buying the new device on the deadline date will be too
>> late as a practical matter.
>>
>> 7.  "Refund4Freedom supports this transition and helps users avoid
>> unnecessary costs while promoting device neutrality and
>> user-controlled choices."  I suggest replacing "promoting" with
>> "encouraging."  There is nothing wrong with this sentence!  I make
>> this suggestion only because I suggested using the word "promoting"
>> earlier in this paragraph.
>>
>> 8.  "An inspiring example is the successful story."  I suggest
>> rewriting as "A dramatic example is the successful battle."  There is
>> nothing wrong with this, but I think it can be improved (and any
>> number of other rewritings are possible).
>>
>> (a)  One problem is that the word "inspired" appears so often.  It is
>> the second word of the heading.  "Inspired" appears again in the first
>> sentence [with a slightly different meaning, the impetus of the
>> initiative, not that the reader will be inspired].  And now "inspired"
>> occurs again.  Three times in such quick succession seems excessive.
>>
>> (b)  A second issue is that "successful story" seems weak.  Yes, a
>> story about a success is a successful story, but the meaning of
>> "successful story" that I would prefer is a story that accomplishes
>> the story-teller's purpose.  And a battle of Luca against Lenovo is
>> better than a story of Luca against Lenovo.
>>
>> 9.  "The practice of increasing the price of the hardware by including
>> a bundling Windows license is not new, and depending on the
>> manufacturer dealing with it can be a long and quite frustrating
>> process."  This is a replacement for a sentence in the previous
>> version for which I made four suggestions.  I have decided that what I
>> suggested earlier is imperfect, so I am making a new set of
>> suggestions.
>>
>> (a)  I repeat my previous suggestion, #12(a), of replacing "bundling"
>> with "bundled."  This is a matter of English grammar.  The license
>> does not engage in the bundling.  Bundling is what is done to the
>> license when it is included in the sale of the computer.
>>
>> (b)  I now suggest replacing the comma after "new" [which was my
>> previous suggestion #12(b) with a semicolon and removing the next
>> word, "and."  A semicolon is another way of joining two independent
>> sentences.
>>
>> (c)  I now suggest inserting a comma after "manufacturer."  This is
>> necessary to make clear what the nature of the dependency is:  the
>> degree of frustration depends on who the manufacturer is.  [My
>> suggestion (b), above, avoids having this comma be close to the comma
>> that I previously suggested for separating  the two halves of this
>> sentence.]
>>
>> 10.  "In 2018, Luca filed a request to Lenovo for the refund of the
>> cost of the pre-installed Windows in his new Lenovo Ideapad
>> convertible laptop."  I still think (my previous #13(a)) that the
>> request was for the cost of the Windows license, not the cost of the
>> software as such.
>>
>> 11.  I see that you did not adopt my suggestions (in my previous #14)
>> for changes to the alt text for the second figure.
>>
>> 12.  I see that you did not adopt my grammatical suggestion (in my
>> previous #15(a)) for removal of the comma in the phrase "an easy,
>> consumer rights request."  The technical terminology is that a comma
>> is used if the adjectives are '"coordinate adjectives," adjectives
>> that directly and equally modify the following noun.  Adjectives are
>> considered coordinate if the meaning would be the same if their order
>> were reversed or if "and" were placed between them.  You wouldn't say
>> "a consumer rights, easy request" or "an easy and consumer rights
>> request."
>>
>> 13.  In my previous suggestion #18(b), I suggested replacing
>> "manufactures" with "manufacturers."  The two words are different.  A
>> manufacturer makes something.  The less common "manufacture" (when
>> used as a noun) can either mean the process of making something or
>> what is made.
>> (You inserted a comma after "guidance" that I did not suggest in my
>> previous suggestion #18(a) and would not have suggested, but the
>> sentence reads equally well either way.)
>>
>> I think that this will reach you in good time, before evening in Berlin.
>>
>> On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 4:50 AM Ana Galan <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Thanks a lot Richard!
>>>
>>> I applied your suggestions. In the meanwhile we added a new paragraph as
>>> the FSFE is now supporting the End of 10 campaign and we change a 
>>> subtitle.
>>>
>>> https://webpreview.fsfe.org/cgi/fsfe.pl?pad=1467
>>>
>>> To make it easier the paragraph is the following:
>>>
>>> /"Refund4Freedom is inserted in a broader set of activities aiming at
>>> end-users rights. For instance, the End of 10 campaign
>>> <https://endof10.org/> encourages users to keep using their current
>>> hardware by switching to Free Software operating systems. This offers an
>>> alternative to buying a new device when support for Windows 10 ends on
>>> 14 October 2025. By demanding refunds for unwanted pre-installed
>>> software, Refund4Freedom supports this transition and helps users avoid
>>> unnecessary costs while promoting device neutrality and user-controlled
>>> choices."/
>>>
>>> and the subtitle was "Enforcing Software Freedom in Court" and now is
>>> "/Get inspired! A tenacious example of license refund in Italy/"
>>>
>>> Sorry for the inconvenience.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ana
>>>
>>> On 5/27/25 10:14, Richard L. Schmeidler wrote:
>>>> This is the latest message I have received from you.  Over fourteen
>>>> hours later, I did not receive any other message, specifically not the
>>>> xhtml update.
>>>>
>>>> Since you want this "done by next Tuesday evening," after a busy
>>>> weekend away from home I started to proofread it tonight to have it in
>>>> your hands by Tuesday morning Berlin time.
>>>>
>>>> I wanted to proofread the current webpreview, and attach a version 
>>>> of my own.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, the webpreview cited in your message that arrived this
>>>> morning, https://webpreview.fsfe.org/cgi/fsfe.pl?pad=1465 , is not in
>>>> English.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, the webpreview cited in your message that arrived on
>>>> May 23, https://webpreview.fsfe.org/cgi/fsfe.pl?pad=1463 , is not in
>>>> English.
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately, the xhtml file attached to the message that arrived on
>>>> May 23 was in English.  I am therefore proofreading that version of
>>>> the text. The .xhtml file I am attaching is based on that file, not
>>>> something newer.  I am also attaching a .odt version so as to give
>>>> both me and you the benefit of the LibreOffice "Track Changes"
>>>> feature.
>>>>
>>>> =====
>>>>
>>>> Gabriele Ponzo made what seem to me to be a number of excellent
>>>> suggestions for improvements to the English text of the postcard.  Are
>>>> there any suggestions from the Italian version of the news item that
>>>> should be incorporated into the English text?
>>>>
>>>> =====
>>>>
>>>> 1.   Title:  "No more imposed licensing - Get back the costs of your
>>>> Windows License!"  Replace "costs" with "cost."  There is really only
>>>> one cost of one person's license, the expense of paying for the
>>>> license.  In the xhtml file, this appears twice.  (If you want to
>>>> express this using "your" as a plural pronoun, it would be equally
>>>> good to say "Get back the costs of your Windows Licenses!")
>>>>
>>>> 2.  Alt text for first figure.  "Illustration of a subtration that is
>>>> showing a laptop with what looks similar to the windows logo on the
>>>> screen. Then we have the the minus sign and what looks like the
>>>> Windows logo. After it the equal sign and the same laptop that now is
>>>> showing a heart on the screen. All is white with a blue background"
>>>> (These suggestions do not show up on my .odt version.)
>>>>
>>>> (a)  I do not know what is intended by "subtration."  An internet
>>>> search seems to bring up that this is an incorrect spelling of
>>>> "subtraction," but that is surely not intended here.  I suggest
>>>> clarification, but in my version I am simply removing "of a
>>>> subtration"
>>>>
>>>> (b)  Replace "the the" with "the."
>>>>
>>>> (c)  Capitalize "windows" to conform to usage later in the sentence.
>>>>
>>>> 3.  "As an user, you have most likely encountered the issue"  Replace
>>>> "an" with "a."  The rule in English for choosing between "an" and "a"
>>>> is to look at  the pronunciation of the word that follows.  At least
>>>> in the US English I speak, but I think also elsewhere, "user" is
>>>> pronounced "YOO-z'r" with a strong initial Y sound and a very
>>>> indistinct vowel in the second syllable.
>>>>
>>>> 4.  "without an effective and easy way for the consumers to opt-out."
>>>> Replace "opt-out" with "opt out."  Although "opt-out" is clear, the
>>>> form without the hyphen is customary.
>>>>
>>>> 5.  "This standardized practice not only adds extra costs for the
>>>> consumers pockets, if they do not want that pre-installed software,
>>>> but also comes with another issue: the hardship of saying no to it and
>>>> getting a refund."
>>>>
>>>> (a)  Replace "consumers" with "consumers' ".  The possessive form of 
>>>> the plural.
>>>>
>>>> (b)  I suggest removing the first comma (after "pockets").  This comma
>>>> is grammatically correct, but it is in the first half of a relatively
>>>> complex sentence.  The second half (starting with "but") is itself
>>>> divided in half by the colon.  I think that removing the comma makes
>>>> the first half clearer, since now there is no internal punctuation in
>>>> the first half to be confused with the comma separating the two
>>>> halves.
>>>>
>>>> 6.  'refund.Forcing"  Insert a space between the two sentences.
>>>>
>>>> 7.  "Forcing consumers, to buy a software every time you acquire a 
>>>> new device"
>>>>
>>>> (a)  Remove the comma after "consumers."  English grammar.
>>>>
>>>> (b)  Remove the first occurrence of "a" (before "software").  English
>>>> grammar.  In English, "software" is a mass (or uncountable) noun.
>>>> Just as one cannot buy seven softwares, one cannot buy "a software."
>>>>
>>>> (c)  Replace "you" with "they."  Yes, the readers are consumers, but
>>>> this statement applies to all consumers, not just the readers.
>>>>
>>>> 8.   "Besides, it is illegal when manufacturers do not allow consumers
>>>> to reimburse the licensing costs of not used software."
>>>>
>>>> (a)   Replace "reimburse" with "recover."  The two words differ in
>>>> meaning.  The manufacturer or retailer must pay money to the consumer;
>>>>    that is a reimbursement.  The consumer does not do the reimbursing;
>>>> the consumer recovers the unnecessary expense.
>>>>
>>>> (b)  Replace "not used" with "unused."  English usage.
>>>>
>>>> 8.  "The Refund4Freedomaims to"
>>>>
>>>> (a)  I suggest removing the first word, "The."  English usage.  It
>>>> would also be possible to insert "initiative" after "Refund4Freedom,"
>>>> but since Refund4Freedom has been identified as an initiative in both
>>>> of the earlier sentences in this paragraph, I think that saying this a
>>>> third time would be excessive.
>>>>
>>>> (b)  Insert a space between "Refund4Freedom" and "aims."
>>>>
>>>> 9.  "Help consumers to get a refund of the Windows License when buying
>>>> a new device"   To conform to the other items, add a period (full
>>>> stop) at the end of this item.
>>>>
>>>> 10.  "Protect the right to use only the software of their choice."
>>>> Replace "their" with "one's."  English grammar.  For several reasons,
>>>> the antecedent of "their" is manufacturers, not consumers.  What is
>>>> intended is consumers have the choice, although I must admit that
>>>> Microsoft would like to see to it that everyone uses software of
>>>> Microsoft's choice.  8-)
>>>>
>>>> 11.  "An inspiring example is the successful story from Luca Bonnissi"
>>>>    I suggest replacing "from" with "of."  English usage.  (If Luca's
>>>> story were presented as a write-up that he had prepared, this would be
>>>> a story from him.)
>>>>
>>>> 12.  "The practice of increasing the price of the hardware by
>>>> including a bundling Windows license is not new and depending the
>>>> manufacturer can be a long and quite frustrating process."
>>>>
>>>> (a)  Replace "bundling" with "bundled."  The license does not engage
>>>> in the bundling.
>>>>
>>>> (b)  Insert a comma after "new."  English grammar.  When what would be
>>>> two complete sentences are joined with "and," the comma is necessary.
>>>>
>>>> (c)  Insert "on" after "depending."  English usage.
>>>>
>>>> (d)  I suggest inserting something like "dealing with it" before
>>>> "can."  Quite contrary to what is stated here, there is nothing long
>>>> or frustrating for the vendor in the practice of increasing the price
>>>> by including the license.
>>>>
>>>> 13. "In 2018, Luca filed a request to Lenovo for the refund and return
>>>> of the pre-installed Windows in his new Lenovo Ideapad convertible
>>>> table."
>>>>
>>>> (a)  Replace "and return of the pre-installed Windows" with "of the
>>>> cost of the pre-installed Windows license"  This corrects a
>>>> misstatement of fact.  See
>>>> https://bonissi.it/bonissi_lenovo/01- 
>>>> chat_con_ServizioClienti_Lenovo.pdf
>>>>
>>>> (b)  Replace "table" with "laptop" or "laptop/tablet."  In English, a
>>>> table is an entirely different object from a tablet.
>>>>
>>>> 14.  Alt text:  "Illustration of a hand removing what looks like a
>>>> Windows logo sticker with the word Freedom."  Replace "with" with
>>>> "partially covering."  The word "Freedom" is not on the sticker, and I
>>>> think that it is useful to indicate that the word would be clearly
>>>> readable even before the sticker is removed.  Other phrasings would be
>>>> possible.   (This suggestion does not show up on my .odt version.)
>>>>
>>>> 15.  "What started as an easy, consumer rights request ended up in a
>>>> truly legal and bureaucratic quest which consumed years, several court
>>>> proceedings, and much resilience and determination from Luca."
>>>>
>>>> (a)  Remove the comma after "easy."  English grammar.
>>>>
>>>> (b)  I suggest removing "truly."  English usage.  There is nothing
>>>> specifically relating to truthfulness in the description of the
>>>> process.  Why would anyone doubt that the quest was both legal and
>>>> bureaucratic?
>>>>
>>>> (c)  I suggest replacing "legal and bureaucratic" with "bureaucratic
>>>> and legal."  According to
>>>> https://fsfe.org/news/2021/news-20210302-01.en.html , the bureaucratic
>>>> efforts preceded the legal ones.
>>>>
>>>> 16.  "At the end, the court confirmed the right to reimbursement of
>>>> the pre-installed software and the sentence pointed out that the
>>>> manufacturer itself had expressly assumed this obligation in the
>>>> Windows licence."
>>>>
>>>> (a)  I suggest replacing "At" with "In."  English usage.
>>>>
>>>> (b)  Replace "of" with "for."  English usage.
>>>>
>>>> (c)  Replace "sentence" with "decision."  English legal terminology.
>>>>
>>>> (d)  Replace "licence" with "license."  See the FSFE style guide, now
>>>> available at https://wiki.fsfe.org/TechDocs/Mainpage/Translations/ 
>>>> Styleguide
>>>> .  It has, as the second of its English Rules, a specific reference to
>>>> the spelling of this word.  Since this is a license of a very
>>>> international company, the US spelling should be used.
>>>>
>>>> 17.  These companies often use their position of power to discourage
>>>> individuals, who do not have time and resources to be involved in
>>>> drawn-out litigation just for a Windows license refund.  Remove the
>>>> comma after "individuals."  English grammar.
>>>>
>>>> 18.  "empowering them with knowledge, guidance, and to reclaim that
>>>> manufactures should not impose specific operating systems on them."
>>>>
>>>> (a)  I suggest rewriting to replace the first comma and "guidance, and
>>>> to reclaim" with just the words "and guidance."  "Reclaim" should be
>>>> replaced; it is not the right word here, but I am not at all sure what
>>>> should replace it.  To say "reclaim" would mean to give consumers back
>>>> something that they used to have and to which they are now entitled.
>>>> The second of these applies, but not the first.  Since Refund4Freedom
>>>> will provide information and inspiration, but will not provide
>>>> effective tools that are easy to use, my suggestion does not go so far
>>>> as to say that the initiative will reclaim freedom from this
>>>> imposition.
>>>>
>>>> (b)  Replace "manufactures" with "manufacturers."
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 26, 2025 at 6:14 AM Ana Galan <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> due to some issues with the webpreview, the English version is now 
>>>>> here:
>>>>> https://webpreview.fsfe.org/cgi/fsfe.pl?pad=1465
>>>>>
>>>>> We will need to add an extra paragraph so I will send you another mail
>>>>> later today with the xhtml update. That pad will also be updated later
>>>>> with the new paragraph
>>>>>
>>>>> (I just wanted to make sure you are not currently looking for it 
>>>>> and you
>>>>> cannot find it)
>>>>>
>>>>> The IT translation is also ready for proofread:
>>>>> https://webpreview.fsfe.org/cgi/fsfe.pl?pad=1464
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ana
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/23/25 09:46, Ana Galan wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> next week  (Thursday) we have the kick-off event of the initiative
>>>>>> Refund4Freedom and therefore, we wrote a news item about it.  I am
>>>>>> kindly asking for your help with English proofread and, as it is 
>>>>>> an IT
>>>>>> initiative, an IT translation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be great to have it done by next Tuesday evening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As usual, you can find the xhtml file attached and the English 
>>>>>> version
>>>>>> in the webpreview: https://webpreview.fsfe.org/cgi/fsfe.pl?pad=1463
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks a lot and have a great weekend,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ana
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Translators mailing list -- [email protected]
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> This mailing list is covered by the FSFE's Code of Conduct. All
>>>>> participants are kindly asked to be excellent to each other:
>>>>> https://fsfe.org/about/codeofconduct
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Ana Galan - Senior Project Manager Communications
>>> Free Software Foundation Europe
>>> Schönhauser Allee 6/7, 10119 Berlin, Germany | t:+49 157 92 34 72 12
>>> Registered at Amtsgericht Hamburg, VR 17030  |(fsfe.org/support)
>>>
>>


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