Re: [OS:N:] Another multiple response (Basic rights warmed up in the microwave again)

You are not just missing the point.  You are so far off it is a wonder
you can survive a university course at all.

You have the right to tell people how you want to be educated.  They
also have the right to tell you how then will educate use.  After
graduating high school you have the right to tell them that you will go
somewhere else if you do not agree with them.  They also have to right
to say  Bye-Bye and off you go.

They teach how they see fit usually based on what they can make money
on.  This has nothing to do with your rights.  Just theirs.  Again you
only have the right to say yes or no to this.

Now, if many people agree with you, and do not take their courses, then
they will change to try and make money.  They may or may not change to
methods you requested.  Again you have the right to say yay or nay.

You are a taker,  The rights always fall with the giver.

Johnnie


On Fri, 2003-08-15 at 05:20, James Michael DuPont wrote:
> 
> --- Les Bell <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 
> > James Michael DuPont <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 
> > >>
> > The next best way to caputre a market and take away all thier
> > freedoms.
> > <<
> > 
> > I'll point out, parenthetically, that the only one talking about
> > taking
> > away anyone's freedoms here is you.
> 
> I am the only one here who is interested in the student rights and
> freedoms. Most of you are talking about yourselves and what you do with
> the money you make, and how much you need it.
> > 
> > >>
> > When I talk about the rights of the students, I mean that as well.
> > When
> > you look at the contracts, laws and EULA, you see that they are
> > designed on limiting the rights of the users.
> > <<
> > 
> > As I have repeatedly stated, there is *no* right to the source code
> > of
> > programs other people write. 
> 
> If they dont want to give them to you, no there is not. But people have
> the right to use only free software, they have the right to refuse
> aggreements that would take away that right, they have the right to try
> study without having to use non-free software, they have the right to
> point out and publicly decry others who would try and take these rights
> away.
> 
> Is copyright not enough for you? Copyright protects your works, why to
> you need more?
> 
> >Or to the "source" of media, for that
> > matter.
> > A more general description of contracts, laws, and EULAs is that they
> > are
> > designed to ensure that both parties understand what they are and are
> > not
> > expected to do.
> 
> All of these EULA try and remove rights that the users have already
> have. What do you need all these extra clauses for, if not to remove
> basic freedoms that the users have.
> 
> > The GPL explicitly grants the right to the source
> > code of
> > software licenced under it - but the use of the GPL is quite properly
> > at
> > the discretion of the original author and is a privilege extended to
> > the
> > user, not a basic human right.
> 
> It is your right to try and hide the source code of the programs you
> write. I, among others, see that the students have the basic right to
> choose to use free software exclusivly for studying. That may not be a
> basic human right, but it is something worth fighting for.
> 
> 
>  
> > >>
> > In the pure state, a human is not bound by contract, only by binding
> > themselves to various agreements do these rights become take away.
> > <<
> > 
> > In the pure state, there is no such thing as software or source code.
> 
> The point is that all these contracts place more and more restrictions
> on the students that were not there to begin with. 
> 
> Lets put it this way, copyright law protects your content, and gives
> the users basic rights to use that content. 
> 
> Even without the gpl, you have alot more rights as a us citizen than as
> somone using the courseware from redhat, because you need to agree to
> have a whole load of additional rights taken away from you in the
> process of signing up for the course.
> 
> The ability to use free software exclusivly is also thrown out the
> window in the process. That is why I am here, becuase I see that as a
> basic right of a studen. How many times times do I need to repeat
> myself?
> 
> > 
> > >>
> > The proponents of IP on this list are interested in these "rightless"
> > people because they do not trust them, and because they can help pay
> > off thier morgages and buy luxary goods for thier children. But there
> > are other ways to do this without taking away student rights, like
> > teaching them things.
> > <<
> > 
> > Sigh. Of course students have rights. They're not "rightless" people,
> > so
> > please do not erect straw-man arguments. I've spent a sizeable
> > proportion
> > of my life interacting with adult students, so I know them as
> > *people*, not
> > abstract entities as you seem to do. 
> 
> I am more of a student than as teacher. As a student it is very
> difficult to use only free software, partly because of the good job
> microsoft has done in marketing office and partly in the non-caring
> administration who sells away the rights of the students.
> 
> >I find your assertion that I 
> > view the
> > people who attend my courses as some kind of cash cow to be milked so
> > that
> > I can attain a luxurious lifestyle to be personally offensive. It
> > does you
> > no credit.
> > 
> > The students I deal with are customers, so I strain to provide them
> > with
> > value; I work long hours to make sure that they get the best value
> > for
> > their money that I can. 
> [SNIP- sounds like very good service. That deserves payment]
> 
> > I work hard at all this, and I tell you straight out: I have *never*
> > taken
> > away any student's rights. Not in any way, shape or form.
> 
> OK, Can your students use only free software to take part in your
> course? Do they to sign agreements that remove their ability to use
> free software exclusivly? Do they have to submit or accept docuements
> in non-standard formats? Do they have to be bound by contracts that go
> futher than the basic copyright laws that protect your content anyway?
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, I have listed a very few specific cases where I
> > know a
> > student has taken away mine. Does this mean I do not trust people?
> > Not
> > 100%, no - only a fool leaves the front door of his house open, the
> > keys in
> > his parked car, and so on. To be honest, I am very upset when it
> > happens; I
> > take it personally, and it shakes my faith in human nature.
> 
> Ok. So to prevent that from happening again, the ability of the student
> to use %100 free software is also elimintated in the process?
> 
> 
> > However,
> > in
> > general I am optimistic that people will do the right thing and the
> > vast
> > majority of people are worthy of that.
> > 
> > >>
> > I challenge you IP people to make some statements about students and
> > user rights in general, that is the context of this list, or am I
> > wrong?
> > <<
> > 
> > Have I not been specific enough? One last time: students and users
> > have
> > *never* had a "right" to the source code for other people's programs,
> > except where the author confers that right via the GPL or a similar
> > licence. You can't take away a right that never existed.
> 
> OK. I am not going to bore you any more.
> 
> mike
> 
> =====
> James Michael DuPont
> http://introspector.sourceforge.net/
> 
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