Re: IPv8 / BGP8 / CF - just build it
Tom Beecher via NANOG <[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.operators.nanog |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAL9Qcx7cxyvtBfskTrex_6+cTXDUTKv0V76vpCDWRH5UC0okDQ@mail.gmail.com> |
Ryan- Respectfully , why ? On Mon, May 4, 2026 at 19:27 Ryan Hamel via NANOG <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey everyone, > > I think we can all agree that the IPv8 threads have run its course, and > Jamie has received plenty of feedback regarding this proposal via the > mailing list community. If anyone wishes to continue the conversation, I > recommend reaching out to Jamie off list. > > Kind regards, > > Ryan Hamel > > Co-Chair of the Moderation Committee > ________________________________ > From: Jamie Thain via NANOG <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, May 4, 2026 4:06 PM > To: Shrihari Pandit <[email protected]> > Cc: North American Network Operators Group <[email protected]>; Jamie > Thain <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: IPv8 / BGP8 / CF - just build it > > Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care > when clicking links or opening attachments. > > > Shrihari, > > So the real system is IPv8 to mapping to IPv4 to forwarding. > > ABSOLUTELY!!! > > IPV8 is an are protocol > > Imagine a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, how area codes came to > be. > > Each area was a core exchange. 416, Toronto, 212 New York. Once you got to > the major exchange you don't need that number. > > In the exchange there's two type of numbers, 0 and the ASN. > > You have 0 the old numbers and ASN the new. On every router in the world > there is a way to separate numbering systems called VRFs and l2.5 tags. > > Heres the complexity. > > ip vrf Ipv8-asn-1234 > rd 1234:65535 // l2.5 label > > ip vrf ipv4-asn-0 > rd 0:65535 // l2.5 label > > ipip in ip is a silicon and labels put up tunnels all the time. > > All silicon is optimized for this. Only pe routers will make a decision. > The overhead will be measured in hundreds of lines of code and then it will > be in LFIB. > > One level of label when modern systems are capable of 10+ levels. > > It's the exact same process as an mpls tags. > > So the complexity is equal to 2 MPLS l3vpns. > > Hopefully no one on your team thought that that would be very burdensome on > a new router. > > > > Jamie > > > > > On Mon., May 4, 2026, 9:15 a.m. Shrihari Pandit, <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Jamie, > > > > "No new silicon required”, that’s only true because IPv8 is not being > > forwarded natively. Your actual process is: > > 1. Packets are encapsulated into IPv4 > > 2. Lookup happens on IPv4 > > 3. IPv8 is resolved via control-plane indirection > > 4. So the real system is IPv8 to mapping to IPv4 to forwarding. > > > > Which means: > > > > - extra lookup (mapping) > > - extra state (VRFs / LFIBs) > > - extra encapsulation > > - extra operational complexity > > > > IPv8 shifted into the control plane. It reminds me of the original > ARPANET > > days, CPU based routing. If we go down this path, the control planes > might > > all require something like AMD EPYC 9965 (192 cores fyi.) due to PPS > rate. > > > > In reference to "loaded into 2 different LFIBs in the silicon". If I > > understand what you saying: > > A. Each “IPv8 area/ASN construct” = VRF > > B. Each mapping = BGP state > > C. Each path = label / adjacency > > > > These issues still exist, because IPv8 indirectly consumes it: > > > > - TCAM is still consumed (VRF separation not free) > > - LFIB size grows > > - BGP table complexity increases > > - convergence becomes harder > > > > Further, your statement of "if it's passing thru no v8 silicon...." > > implies that every transit node must do: [perform classification, apply > > mapping logic, encapsulate]. That's additional pipeline work. > > > > Shrihari Pandit > > Stealth Communications > > +1-212-232-2025 > > > > On Mon, May 4, 2026 at 1:04 AM Jamie Thain <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Shrihari, > >> > >> See every 10 or 11 emails you get one that is at least an argument. > >> > >> Ipv8 is an area code based system, and the area codes. > >> > >> When an ipv8 packet arrives at your edge there are only 2 conditions. > >> > >> The route is destined for you or it's passing thru, and then there are > >> only 2 cases you have ipv8 silicon or you don't. > >> > >> Ok if it's passing thru no v8 silicon > >> xlate8 looks up it's asnV4 encapsulates it and sends via v4 to that > >> destination. > >> > >> Ok if it's not passing thru and this is the destination then you have > two > >> route tables to be concerned with. Asn 0 and asn my asn say 1234 > >> > >> There are 2 vrfs created on ipv8 configs > >> > >> ip vrf ipv8-asn-1234 > >> rd 1234:65535 > >> > >> ip vrf ipv4-asn-0 > >> rd 0:65535 > >> > >> So as routes the ipv8 is loaded into 2 different lfibs in the silicon > and > >> managed by the ipv4 silicon. > >> > >> You create the ipv8 overlay by putting it in a vrf until ipv8 silicon is > >> naturally updated. > >> > >> Then for the main show ipv8 route it looks in bgp statement > >> > >> include ip vrf ipv8-asn-1234 as asn 1234 > >> Include ip vrf ipv4-asn-0 as ipv4 > >> > >> And shows these routes > >> > >> There is no new silicon required. From a silicon level "IPv8 is an L3VPN > >> with a globally reserved RD. If your router does L3VPN today — and > every SP > >> router does — your router does IPv8 today" > >> > >> HTH > >> > >> Jamie > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun., May 3, 2026, 10:56 a.m. Shrihari Pandit, <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Jamine, > >>> > >>> We had internal discussions with our team and are ones that are > >>> experienced in economics (wide range of fields, and engineering > including > >>> CMOS, FPGA, ACIS.) > >>> > >>> 1. This is what I was told. IPv8 requires two additional lookups. It > >>> results in: > >>> > >>> - wider parser support > >>> - new match/action pipeline design > >>> - more TCAM/SRAM slices > >>> - larger die area > >>> - higher power draw > >>> - lower port density > >>> - new board designs > >>> - new optics/thermal validation > >>> - new NOS/SDK support > >>> - more heat as result of higher power draw > >>> > >>> 2. Cost areas: > >>> > >>> - New ASIC / merchant silicon design > >>> - Router/switch platform redesign > >>> - Carrier backbone + edge replacement > >>> - Hyperscaler/data-center network > >>> - Enterprise/CPE/firewall/load-balancer "refresh" > >>> - Software, OSS/BSS, routing stacks, monitoring systems > >>> - Testing, certification, migration labour > >>> - Operational risk, outages, dual-stack complexity > >>> > >>> The approximate numbers to implement are between $500B up to $2T (more > >>> realistic number @ $740B) > >>> > >>> Cisco describes routing silicon release cycles in the 18–36 month > range, > >>> which means this is not software patches: > >>> src: > >>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cisco.com%2Fc%2Fdam%2Fm%2Fdigital%2Felq-cmcglobal%2Fwitb%2FCKN%2F0721_CROSS.pdf&data=05%7C02%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C87477bf42fe2473d3d5908deaa31e78d%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C639135328511032095%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JNUfJF1zx1JkPyVyNPWp43sZwvas4CpoC8NeHTFSbww%3D&reserved=0 > < > https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/m/digital/elq-cmcglobal/witb/CKN/0721_CROSS.pdf > > > >>> > >>> So IPv8 is control-plane cheap and data-plane expensive. The draft > needs > >>> to account for that. Maybe Trump can allocate $2T to create more jobs, > more > >>> work. You will need to likely reach out to the NSC. It will take 30 > years. > >>> If there is forcing event, maybe 10-15 years and that would require > the gov > >>> to pay all carriers and end-users. > >>> > >>> We should stop the discussion here; You should contact the merchant > >>> silicon companies to find out the costs and whether two additional > lookups > >>> are required and are at what costs (actual costs, power draw, heat, > etc.) > >>> > >>> --- Shrihari 212-232-2025 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, May 2, 2026 at 7:23 PM Jamie Thain via NANOG < > >>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Kevin > >>>> > >>>> Code is expensive. I want a sense of anything is wrong first. > >>>> > >>>> Dns server needs 10 lines of code. Dhcp server 0, ntp server 100, > netlog > >>>> 1000, > >>>> > >>>> So far mostly people have told me to go F myself. > >>>> > >>>> But it's the economics will win. > >>>> > >>>> Tco = 0 > >>>> > >>>> If ipv is compatible > >>>> If protocol = ipv8 > >>>> Tco = education + dev time of tools once on all 4 varaint > >>>> os's + > >>>> any premiium - (integration savings) > >>>> - 100,000s per mid size enterprise per year. > >>>> > >>>> Think -100 000 per 1000 employees or so > >>>> > >>>> If protocol = ipv6 > >>>> Tco = interoperability testing + education + i get my ass > >>>> fired > >>>> for using it. > >>>> > >>>> Tco for ipv8 - billions > >>>> > >>>> Tco for ipv6 + billions > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat., May 2, 2026, 5:56 p.m. Kevin Tillery via NANOG, < > >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > Code is extremely malleable. You are not building a lunar lander. It > >>>> will > >>>> > not explode, kill three people and humiliate a nation if you get it > >>>> wrong. > >>>> > You will just observe that it is wrong and change it until it is > >>>> right. > >>>> > > >>>> > This gives you plentiful opportunities to discover things for > yourself > >>>> > instead of spamming this mailing list with stupid arguments. > >>>> > > >>>> > For example, if you actually write an IPv8 implementation, you can > try > >>>> > connecting it to an IPv4 implementation. You will discover whether > it > >>>> > actually works or not. This is infinitely more valuable than an > >>>> argument. > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > On 2 May 2026 20:05:47 CEST, Jamie Thain via NANOG < > >>>> [email protected]> > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > >Justin, > >>>> > > > >>>> > >Because before you write a line of code you have to get it right, > or > >>>> near > >>>> > >right. > >>>> > > > >>>> > >If you want to see good engineering watch from the "Earth to the > >>>> Moon" > >>>> > Spider, > >>>> > >how they built the lunar lander. > >>>> > > > >>>> > >So far I've had like 3 serious conversations about "this won't > work" > >>>> and > >>>> > each > >>>> > >one has had me improve it. But "go make code" before we discuss > what > >>>> and > >>>> > how it > >>>> > >should be, a DRAFT is actually when you want comments about the > >>>> operation > >>>> > of it > >>>> > >all. > >>>> > > > >>>> > >I'm not going to wait until I written 1m worth of code to figure > >>>> > something is > >>>> > >wrong. > >>>> > > > >>>> > >IETF folks suggested to me, that I join Nanog to see how they might > >>>> use > >>>> > it. IPv8 > >>>> > >is not about address space. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > >Jamie > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > >On Sat, May 2, 2026 at 11:12 AM Justin Streiner via NANOG > >>>> > ><[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > >> I know of enterprises who are deploying v6. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Until you can show the world a working IPv8 implementation on a > >>>> large > >>>> > using > >>>> > >> off-the-shelf components where people can run through failure > >>>> scenarios > >>>> > and > >>>> > >> really beat it up, not many people are going to take it > seriously. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Lower layers of the network relying on the functionality of > higher > >>>> > layers > >>>> > >> is a really, really, really bad idea. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> While it's always important to think about how to so something > >>>> better, > >>>> > v8 > >>>> > >> seems to create a whole bunch of new problems while not solving > >>>> many > >>>> > that > >>>> > >> have already been addressed in v6 and other protocols. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Thank you > >>>> > >> jms > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> On Fri, May 1, 2026, 23:22 Jamie Thain via NANOG < > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> > >> [[email protected]]> > >>>> > >> wrote: > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Andrew, > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > Cell phones. And Cloud. Not Corps. I started some of this, I > >>>> > mentioned IPv6 > >>>> > >> > in a meeting and two corp engineers laughed. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > You can google it yourself. > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > Jamie > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > On Sat, May 2, 2026 at 12:19 AM Andrew Kirch via NANOG < > >>>> > >> > [email protected] [[email protected]]> wrote: > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > If no corporation is migrating then why is IPv6 traffic > >>>> continuing > >>>> > to > >>>> > >> > > increase? > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > As I pointed out, IPv6 traffic increased 5% last year. At > that > >>>> > >> > admittedly > >>>> > >> > > slow rate, the entire internet will be IPv6 in 10 years. > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > Further your assertion that business is the prime mover is > >>>> > incorrect. > >>>> > >> > > Business will move when they have to. That time is coming. > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > When businesses can’t get IPv4 from their providers or > >>>> superscaler, > >>>> > or a > >>>> > >> > > vendor or client can’t reach them, they will move. > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > Andrew > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > On Fri, May 1, 2026 at 11:14 PM Jamie Thain via NANOG < > >>>> > >> > > [email protected] [[email protected]]> > >>>> > >> > > wrote: > >>>> > >> > > > >>>> > >> > > > Andrew, > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > The issue is for corporate and the cloud, IPv6 is just as > >>>> broken > >>>> > as > >>>> > >> > IPv4. > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > And no corporate is migrating go look. Its been the next > big > >>>> > thing in > >>>> > >> > > > Corporate networks for 20 years. > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > Jamie > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2026 at 5:26 PM Andrew Kirch via NANOG < > >>>> > >> > > > [email protected] [[email protected]]> wrote: > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > I oppose this. With IPv6 traffic now representing around > >>>> half > >>>> > of > >>>> > >> > > > internet > >>>> > >> > > > > traffic, the time to rethink has long passed. > >>>> > >> > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > If IPv8 was going to be a solution, it should have been a > >>>> > solution 10 > >>>> > >> > > > years > >>>> > >> > > > > ago. > >>>> > >> > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > In the last 12 months, ~5% of traffic migrated to IPv6. > >>>> At that > >>>> > >> > rate, > >>>> > >> > > > IPv6 > >>>> > >> > > > > will be fully implemented by 2035. I'm not seeing a > >>>> problem > >>>> > that > >>>> > >> > needs > >>>> > >> > > > to > >>>> > >> > > > > be solved, or a credible solution. > >>>> > >> > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > Andrew > >>>> > >> > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2026 at 3:23 PM Jamie Thain via NANOG < > >>>> > >> > > > > [email protected] [[email protected]]> > >>>> > >> > > > > wrote: > >>>> > >> > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > Hi All, > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > My name is Jamie Thain I'm the creator of IPv8. It's > not > >>>> a > >>>> > hoax. > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > I joined this list because, as part of IPv8, I am > >>>> creating a > >>>> > BGPv8. > >>>> > >> > > > > Inside > >>>> > >> > > > > > BGPv8, two new protocols CF (Cost Factor), weigh cost > >>>> factors > >>>> > along > >>>> > >> > > the > >>>> > >> > > > > > routes to produce a better metric. It's a hybrid of > EIRGP > >>>> > mixed > >>>> > >> > with > >>>> > >> > > > BGP > >>>> > >> > > > > to > >>>> > >> > > > > > create better engineering results. > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > I also as part of CF created Sun Tzu which is the > >>>> protocol > >>>> > that > >>>> > >> > > watches > >>>> > >> > > > > CF > >>>> > >> > > > > > and gives you a CF score of reliability. Do I trust my > >>>> > partnership > >>>> > >> > > > with > >>>> > >> > > > > > you? > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > Now, beyond an on-slaught of IPv8 is stupid, IPv6 > solves > >>>> every > >>>> > >> > > problem, > >>>> > >> > > > > > etc, etc. That's not my discussion point. My point > isn't > >>>> > "should I > >>>> > >> > > even > >>>> > >> > > > > > propose IPv8" my point is what would be the best result > >>>> for > >>>> > >> > > operators? > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > I believe that since IPv8 solves the duopoly problem, > it > >>>> will > >>>> > >> > replace > >>>> > >> > > > > > IPv4. > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > So the things to know, IPV8 is NOT a 64 bit addressing > >>>> system. > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > It is a 32 bit routing system with a 32 bit addressing > >>>> system. > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > A Routing Number = ASNs plus others. > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > 8.8.8.8 would become 15169.8.8.8.8 > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Farchive%2Fid%2Fdraft-thain-ipv8-02.html&data=05%7C02%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C87477bf42fe2473d3d5908deaa31e78d%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C639135328511069906%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dqim6N5T5%2FZMzmsrNrmCxCnmR9QAYK2sKjAoWYY5MHQ%3D&reserved=0 > <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-thain-ipv8-02.html> > >>>> > >> [ > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Farchive%2Fid%2Fdraft-thain-ipv8-02.html&data=05%7C02%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C87477bf42fe2473d3d5908deaa31e78d%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C639135328511102558%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iwxr3iZzSJ6SBEy06MKVVkHJ%2B%2BkZNi1xqJNAPkUREeI%3D&reserved=0 > <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-thain-ipv8-02.html>] > >>>> > >> > > > > > < > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fl.shortlink.es%2Fl%2F3ae384c1b8e2eb92749595407c5cf9b87ea&data=05%7C02%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C87477bf42fe2473d3d5908deaa31e78d%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C639135328511132952%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0jx%2F%2BF3NRCHIya7LYuuFjKPTxDLb7uTUCrcBug2Gru4%3D&reserved=0 > <https://l.shortlink.es/l/3ae384c1b8e2eb92749595407c5cf9b87ea> > >>>> > >> [ > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fl.shortlink.es%2Fl%2F3ae384c1b8e2eb92749595407c5cf9b87ea&data=05%7C02%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C87477bf42fe2473d3d5908deaa31e78d%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C639135328511162686%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Cj4HsgIVD9Z5zlU2ej6xF5xqgvCUAf1TDMqUdlphh18%3D&reserved=0 > <https://l.shortlink.es/l/3ae384c1b8e2eb92749595407c5cf9b87ea>] > >>>> > >> > > > > 3372a?u=12457652 > >>>> > >> > > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > So each ASN in the world will have 3 Billion available > >>>> > addresses. > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > There is a specially reserved group of internal ASN > >>>> 127.x.x.x > >>>> > so > >>>> > >> > each > >>>> > >> > > > > corp, > >>>> > >> > > > > > org, has 16 Million areas of 3 Billion addresses, to > >>>> replace > >>>> > >> > 10.x.x.x > >>>> > >> > > > and > >>>> > >> > > > > > 100.64.x.x.x > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > I'd appreciate your thoughts on it > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > Jamie > >>>> > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >>>> > >> > > > > > NANOG mailing list > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.nanog.org%2Farchives%2Flist%2Fnanog%40lists.nanog.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C87477bf42fe2473d3d5908deaa31e78d%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C639135328511194508%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2FozmsvYsbsDGCJfE3LK%2B%2FAtDJU%2FAz%2Be%2BxLTB%2B%2BZESk%3D&reserved=0 > <https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/[email protected]/> > >>>> > >> [ > 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