Re: Using Cloudflare after Christchurch
Mehmet Akcin <[email protected]> Sun, 4 Aug 2019 19:51:26 -0700
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.operators.nznog |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CA+LTh5U4AOKH03BAYmros-WH_z8c-nxCXc2V3ewOLu0B9nX=Qw@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============0466344201== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066a7d5058f55c93d" --00000000000066a7d5058f55c93d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/ They closed 8chan, wish this was done earlier. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 22:51 Jonathan Brewer <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Stuart, > > I use CloudFlare as an infrastructure provider of choice & don't believe = I > fall into any of Peter's reductionist categories. > > I understand there are levers for suppressing illegal content at every > layer of the network stack & there are a lot of hairy jurisdiction proble= ms > with doing so. Free Speech and harmful speech mean different things in > different places. At the moment I'm staying somewhere a lot of CDN conten= t > that's available in NZ isn't served at all - and I'm ok with that. > > There's a New Zealand forum for discussing these issues called NetHui. > It's coming up in October. https://2019.nethui.nz/ Why not discuss there > what kind of content should be suppressed, and how NZ can require the CDN= s > like CloudFlare to stop serving it in NZ? > > There are also regional forums for discussion. I'll be at the Asia Pacifi= c > regional Internet Governance Forum https://aprigf.ru/ next week & happy > to have a productive discussion with anyone who comes along about rationa= l > solutions for content suppression that don't involve pitchforks & bonfire= s. > > Cheers, > > Jon > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 15:49 stuart pilling, <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> A long time lurker, but this one seems to be well worth the wait. Can >> someone online or offline please provide a list of those houses that >> use/support cloudflare as their infrastructure partner of choice. I don= =E2=80=99t >> really want to wade through the DNC records looking for cloudflare DNS >> entries. Commercial pressure comes from business that buy services as w= ell. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> >> Stu >> >> >> >> *From:* [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Jed Laundry >> *Sent:* Friday, 3 May 2019 11:21 a.m. >> *To:* Peter Lambrechtsen; nznog >> *Subject:* Re: [nznog] Using Cloudflare after Christchurch >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> InternetNZ are working on a well-considered response and I do support >> them, but I don't think they are the only organisation or group where th= is >> should be discussed. Especially where operational decisions are involved >> which may have downstream effects. >> >> >> I agree with Peter and Michael; the argument that "it's just content" an= d >> that ISPs have no role in layer 8+ policy decisions is a bit disingenuou= s, >> because we regularly filter our customers from bad things. We run spam >> filters, we block malware sites, we choose to stop working with abusive >> customers; we (try to) make the internet a hostile place for bad people = to >> operate. This isn't censorship--they can still get content online--we ju= st >> don't make it easy for them. >> >> >> Cloudflare have taken a commercial position based on a very US-centric >> "free speech" world view that they, effectively, shouldn't try to do any= of >> this. Personally, I can understand their position, but I don't agree wit= h >> it. Lacking any US amendment, the seemingly only way to change this >> commercial position is to apply commercial pressure, which is the point >> that Peter is making; is anyone considering operational changes to apply >> commercial pressure? >> >> I know on the consumer side, at $DAYJOB we're looking at edge services. >> Cloudflare are of course one of the options. Based on my personal >> experience with my free account I was going to strongly back them, but >> their continued non-response to these events has made me reconsider that >> and my personal IT involvement with them. >> >> Thanks, >> Jed. >> >> >> >> On Fri, 3 May 2019 at 11:06, Peter Lambrechtsen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I have tried tweeting eastdakota when I was doxed and haven't had a >> response. If you get a response I would be interested. >> >> >> >> But I highly recommend you ask him the pointed question about the AUP of >> Cloudflare as brevity of it speaks volumes: >> >> >> >> https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/ >> >> >> >> And ask him why *all* the most vile sites on the internet seem to only >> use his services for WAF/DDoS protection and none of the other providers >> and why he doesn't do anything about it. It's no mistake that there isn'= t >> any validation of the email address you use when signing up to the >> Cloudflare service. >> >> >> >> Cheers, Peter >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:44 AM Mehmet Akcin <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> If you have concerns, email the ceo or tweet him @eastdakota. Good guy, >> reasonable, and he will take time respond. I know people who work there. >> They are not going to let anyone malicious use their platform knowingly. >> >> >> >> =E2=80=98Mehmet >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 15:14 Michael Fincham <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> On Fri, 3 May 2019 09:10:50 +1200 >> Jonathan Brewer <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > InternetNZ is the forum to discuss this, not NZNOG. >> >> Engineers have a personal responsibility to ensure that the actions they >> take, even on behalf of an employer, are ethically right. >> >> I do think therefore this is a discussion for NZNOG, being as it is a >> community of engineers who do the implementing. >> >> -- >> Michael >> _______________________________________________ >> NZNOG mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >> >> -- >> >> Mehmet >> +1-424-298-1903 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NZNOG mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NZNOG mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NZNOG mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >> > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > --=20 Mehmet +1-424-298-1903 --00000000000066a7d5058f55c93d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><div><a href=3D"https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8c= han/">https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/</a></div><= br></div><div dir=3D"auto">They closed 8chan, wish this was done earlier.</= div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att= r">On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 22:51 Jonathan Brewer <<a href=3D"mailto:jon.b= [email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote c= lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;= padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hi Stuart,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><= div dir=3D"auto">I use CloudFlare as an infrastructure provider of choice &= amp; don't believe I fall into any of Peter's reductionist categori= es.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I understand there a= re levers for suppressing illegal content at every layer of the network sta= ck & there are a lot of hairy jurisdiction problems with doing so. Free= Speech and harmful speech mean different things in different places. At th= e moment I'm staying somewhere a lot of CDN content that's availabl= e in NZ isn't served at all - and I'm ok with that.</div><div dir= =3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There's a New Zealand forum for d= iscussing these issues called NetHui. It's coming up in October.=C2=A0<= a href=3D"https://2019.nethui.nz/" target=3D"_blank">https://2019.nethui.nz= /</a> Why not discuss there what kind of content should be suppressed, and = how NZ can require the CDNs like CloudFlare to stop serving it in NZ?</div>= <div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There are also regional forum= s for discussion. I'll be at the Asia Pacific regional Internet Governa= nce Forum=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://aprigf.ru/" target=3D"_blank">https://apr= igf.ru/</a> next week & happy to have a productive discussion with anyo= ne who comes along about rational solutions for content suppression that do= n't involve pitchforks & bonfires.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div= ><div dir=3D"auto">Cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"aut= o">Jon</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"= gmail_attr">On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 15:49 stuart pilling, <<a href=3D"mailto= :[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&g= t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-NZ" link= =3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_1851952402575907690m_-4361340999= 308355124WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0= pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi= All,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si= ze:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f4= 97d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f= ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo= r:#1f497d">A long time lurker, but this one seems to be well worth the wait= .=C2=A0 Can someone online or offline please provide a list of those houses= that use/support cloudflare as their infrastructure partner of choice.=C2= =A0 I don=E2=80=99t really want to wade through the DNC records looking for= cloudflare DNS entries.=C2=A0 Commercial pressure comes from business that= buy services as well.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span= style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif= ";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"= ><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans= -serif";color:#1f497d">Cheers<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN= ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",&quo= t;sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class= =3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&qu= ot;,"sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Stu<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl= ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri= ","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p= ><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm= 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size= :10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span>= </b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma= ","sans-serif""> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= o.ac.nz" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= .nz</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>] <b>On B= ehalf Of </b>Jed Laundry<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 3 May 2019 11:21 a.m.<br><= b>To:</b> Peter Lambrechtsen; nznog<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [nznog] Using Cl= oudflare after Christchurch<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNo= rmal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<u></= u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></di= v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">InternetNZ are working on a well-considered r= esponse and I do support them, but I don't think they are the only orga= nisation or group where this should be discussed. Especially where operatio= nal decisions are involved which may have downstream effects. <u></u><u></u= ></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>I agree with Peter and Michael; = the argument that "it's just content" and that ISPs have no r= ole in layer 8+ policy decisions is a bit disingenuous, because we regularl= y filter our customers from bad things. We run spam filters, we block malwa= re sites, we choose to stop working with abusive customers; we (try to) mak= e the internet a hostile place for bad people to operate. This isn't ce= nsorship--they can still get content online--we just don't make it easy= for them.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg= in-bottom:12.0pt"><br>Cloudflare have taken a commercial position based on = a very US-centric "free speech" world view that they, effectively= , shouldn't try to do any of this. Personally, I can understand their p= osition, but I don't agree with it. Lacking any US amendment, the seemi= ngly only way to change this commercial position is to apply commercial pre= ssure, which is the point that Peter is making; is anyone considering opera= tional changes to apply commercial pressure?<br><br>I know on the consumer = side, at $DAYJOB we're looking at edge services. Cloudflare are of cour= se one of the options. Based on my personal experience with my free account= I was going to strongly back them, but their continued non-response to the= se events has made me reconsider that and my personal IT involvement with t= hem.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Jed.<br><br><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On = Fri, 3 May 2019 at 11:06, Peter Lambrechtsen <<a href=3D"mailto:peter@cr= ypt.nz" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<= u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #= cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">= <div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have tried tweeting=C2=A0eastdakota when= I was doxed and haven't had a response. If you get a response I would = be interested.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u= ></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I highly recommend you ask h= im the pointed question about the AUP of Cloudflare as brevity of it speaks= volumes:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<= u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.cloudfla= re.com/terms/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.cloudflare.= com/terms/</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>= =C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And ask him why *all* th= e most vile sites on the internet seem to only use his services for WAF/DDo= S protection and none of the other providers and why he doesn't do anyt= hing about it. It's no mistake that there isn't any validation of t= he email address you use when signing up to the Cloudflare service.<u></u><= u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><= div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers, Peter<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div= ><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo= rmal">On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:44 AM Mehmet Akcin <<a href=3D"mailto:me= [email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&g= t; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-le= ft:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-r= ight:0cm"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you have concerns, email the = ceo or tweet him @eastdakota. Good guy, reasonable, and he will take time r= espond. I know people who work there. They are not going to let anyone mali= cious use their platform knowingly.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p cl= ass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"= >=E2=80=98Mehmet<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>= =C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 15= :14 Michael Fincham <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"no= referrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u>= </u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.= 0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, 3 May 2019 09:10:50 +1200<br>Jonathan Brewer <<a = href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">j= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br>> InternetNZ is the forum to d= iscuss this, not NZNOG.<br><br>Engineers have a personal responsibility to = ensure that the actions they take, even on behalf of an employer, are ethic= ally right.<br><br>I do think therefore this is a discussion for NZNOG, bei= ng as it is a community of engineers who do the implementing.<br><br>-- <br= >Michael<br>_______________________________________________<br>NZNOG mailin= g list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a href=3D"https://list.wai= kato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt= ps://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><u></u><u></u></p></block= quote></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class= =3D"MsoNormal">Mehmet<br>+1-424-298-1903<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D= "MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>NZNOG mailin= g list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta= rget=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a href=3D"https://list.wai= kato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt= ps://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><u></u><u></u></p></block= quote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">________________________________________= _______<br>NZNOG mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= " rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><br><a h= ref=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"noreferrer= " target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><u= ></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div>____________________________= ___________________<br> NZNOG mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b= lank">[email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"norefe= rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listi= nfo/nznog</a><br> </blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> NZNOG mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= ikato.ac.nz</a><br> <a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"norefe= rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</= a><br> </blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" = data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Mehmet<br>+1-424-298-1903</div> --00000000000066a7d5058f55c93d-- --===============0466344201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list [email protected] https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog --===============0466344201==--