Re: Using Cloudflare after Christchurch
Peter Lambrechtsen <[email protected]> Mon, 5 Aug 2019 15:50:35 +1200
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.operators.nznog |
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| Message-ID | <CACJd5cEaqOJz3A-LBFR0w4AjqZsTpZYqXX9Yk4J7d-Xtwmd1Rw@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============1548306104== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f0f8c7058f569c9a" --000000000000f0f8c7058f569c9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well Cloudflare plan to IPO next month so it's bad for the bottom line. https://twitter.com/ninaandtito/status/1158204753056284673 This has zero to do with morals as is the case with the responses here on NZNOG and everything to do about how the bad press of hosting child abuse sites (which included sub-forums on 8chan), terrorist manifestos are bad for their future cashing out. If only someone had said hosting terrorist web sites and the companies who support them by providing DDoS protection was a bad thing. Cloudflare will milk this as a "tough decision" and "against their ideals of free speech". When really it's just about the money. On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 2:51 PM Mehmet Akcin <[email protected]> wrote: > https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/ > > They closed 8chan, wish this was done earlier. > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 22:51 Jonathan Brewer <[email protected]> wrote= : > >> Hi Stuart, >> >> I use CloudFlare as an infrastructure provider of choice & don't believe >> I fall into any of Peter's reductionist categories. >> >> I understand there are levers for suppressing illegal content at every >> layer of the network stack & there are a lot of hairy jurisdiction probl= ems >> with doing so. Free Speech and harmful speech mean different things in >> different places. At the moment I'm staying somewhere a lot of CDN conte= nt >> that's available in NZ isn't served at all - and I'm ok with that. >> >> There's a New Zealand forum for discussing these issues called NetHui. >> It's coming up in October. https://2019.nethui.nz/ Why not discuss there >> what kind of content should be suppressed, and how NZ can require the CD= Ns >> like CloudFlare to stop serving it in NZ? >> >> There are also regional forums for discussion. I'll be at the Asia >> Pacific regional Internet Governance Forum https://aprigf.ru/ next week >> & happy to have a productive discussion with anyone who comes along abou= t >> rational solutions for content suppression that don't involve pitchforks= & >> bonfires. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jon >> >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 15:49 stuart pilling, <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> >>> >>> A long time lurker, but this one seems to be well worth the wait. Can >>> someone online or offline please provide a list of those houses that >>> use/support cloudflare as their infrastructure partner of choice. I do= n=E2=80=99t >>> really want to wade through the DNC records looking for cloudflare DNS >>> entries. Commercial pressure comes from business that buy services as = well. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> Stu >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* [email protected] [mailto: >>> [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Jed Laundry >>> *Sent:* Friday, 3 May 2019 11:21 a.m. >>> *To:* Peter Lambrechtsen; nznog >>> *Subject:* Re: [nznog] Using Cloudflare after Christchurch >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> InternetNZ are working on a well-considered response and I do support >>> them, but I don't think they are the only organisation or group where t= his >>> should be discussed. Especially where operational decisions are involve= d >>> which may have downstream effects. >>> >>> >>> I agree with Peter and Michael; the argument that "it's just content" >>> and that ISPs have no role in layer 8+ policy decisions is a bit >>> disingenuous, because we regularly filter our customers from bad things= . We >>> run spam filters, we block malware sites, we choose to stop working wit= h >>> abusive customers; we (try to) make the internet a hostile place for ba= d >>> people to operate. This isn't censorship--they can still get content >>> online--we just don't make it easy for them. >>> >>> >>> Cloudflare have taken a commercial position based on a very US-centric >>> "free speech" world view that they, effectively, shouldn't try to do an= y of >>> this. Personally, I can understand their position, but I don't agree wi= th >>> it. Lacking any US amendment, the seemingly only way to change this >>> commercial position is to apply commercial pressure, which is the point >>> that Peter is making; is anyone considering operational changes to appl= y >>> commercial pressure? >>> >>> I know on the consumer side, at $DAYJOB we're looking at edge services. >>> Cloudflare are of course one of the options. Based on my personal >>> experience with my free account I was going to strongly back them, but >>> their continued non-response to these events has made me reconsider tha= t >>> and my personal IT involvement with them. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jed. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 3 May 2019 at 11:06, Peter Lambrechtsen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I have tried tweeting eastdakota when I was doxed and haven't had a >>> response. If you get a response I would be interested. >>> >>> >>> >>> But I highly recommend you ask him the pointed question about the AUP o= f >>> Cloudflare as brevity of it speaks volumes: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.cloudflare.com/terms/ >>> >>> >>> >>> And ask him why *all* the most vile sites on the internet seem to only >>> use his services for WAF/DDoS protection and none of the other provider= s >>> and why he doesn't do anything about it. It's no mistake that there isn= 't >>> any validation of the email address you use when signing up to the >>> Cloudflare service. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, Peter >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:44 AM Mehmet Akcin <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> If you have concerns, email the ceo or tweet him @eastdakota. Good guy, >>> reasonable, and he will take time respond. I know people who work there= . >>> They are not going to let anyone malicious use their platform knowingly= . >>> >>> >>> >>> =E2=80=98Mehmet >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 15:14 Michael Fincham <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, 3 May 2019 09:10:50 +1200 >>> Jonathan Brewer <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> > InternetNZ is the forum to discuss this, not NZNOG. >>> >>> Engineers have a personal responsibility to ensure that the actions the= y >>> take, even on behalf of an employer, are ethically right. >>> >>> I do think therefore this is a discussion for NZNOG, being as it is a >>> community of engineers who do the implementing. >>> >>> -- >>> Michael >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NZNOG mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Mehmet >>> +1-424-298-1903 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NZNOG mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NZNOG mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NZNOG mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> NZNOG mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >> > -- > Mehmet > +1-424-298-1903 > --000000000000f0f8c7058f569c9a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Well Cloudflare plan to IPO next month so it's bad for= the bottom line.<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/ninaand= tito/status/1158204753056284673">https://twitter.com/ninaandtito/status/115= 8204753056284673</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>This has zero to do with = morals as is the case with the responses here on NZNOG and everything to do= about how the bad press of hosting child abuse sites (which included sub-f= orums on 8chan), terrorist manifestos are bad for their future cashing out.= </div><div><br></div><div>If only someone had said hosting terrorist web si= tes and the companies who support them by providing DDoS protection was a b= ad thing.</div><div><br></div><div>Cloudflare will milk this as a "tou= gh decision" and "against their ideals of free speech". When= really it's just about the money.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q= uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 2:51 PM = Mehmet Akcin <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&g= t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p= x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><= div><a href=3D"https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/" = target=3D"_blank">https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan= /</a></div><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">They closed 8chan, wish this was don= e earlier.</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 22:51 Jonathan Brewer <<a href=3D= "mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>>= ; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px= 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di= r=3D"auto">Hi Stuart,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I use Cl= oudFlare as an infrastructure provider of choice & don't believe I = fall into any of Peter's reductionist categories.</div><div dir=3D"auto= "><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I understand there are levers for suppressing= illegal content at every layer of the network stack & there are a lot = of hairy jurisdiction problems with doing so. Free Speech and harmful speec= h mean different things in different places. At the moment I'm staying = somewhere a lot of CDN content that's available in NZ isn't served = at all - and I'm ok with that.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di= r=3D"auto">There's a New Zealand forum for discussing these issues call= ed NetHui. It's coming up in October.=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://2019.neth= ui.nz/" target=3D"_blank">https://2019.nethui.nz/</a> Why not discuss there= what kind of content should be suppressed, and how NZ can require the CDNs= like CloudFlare to stop serving it in NZ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div= ><div dir=3D"auto">There are also regional forums for discussion. I'll = be at the Asia Pacific regional Internet Governance Forum=C2=A0<a href=3D"h= ttps://aprigf.ru/" target=3D"_blank">https://aprigf.ru/</a> next week &= happy to have a productive discussion with anyone who comes along about ra= tional solutions for content suppression that don't involve pitchforks = & bonfires.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Cheers,<= /div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jon</div></div><br><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 9 Jul 2= 019, 15:49 stuart pilling, <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" = target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockqu= ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px= solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-NZ"><div class=3D= "gmail-m_2620932802314730248m_1851952402575907690m_-4361340999308355124Word= Section1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:= Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi All,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p= class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans= -serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso= Normal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:= rgb(31,73,125)">A long time lurker, but this one seems to be well worth the= wait.=C2=A0 Can someone online or offline please provide a list of those h= ouses that use/support cloudflare as their infrastructure partner of choice= .=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t really want to wade through the DNC records looking= for cloudflare DNS entries.=C2=A0 Commercial pressure comes from business = that buy services as well.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><= span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73= ,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D= "font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Cheers= <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11= pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u= ></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil= y:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stu<u></u><u></u></span></p><p c= lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s= erif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div style=3D"bor= der-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb= (181,196,223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"= EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span><= /b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-ser= if"> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer"= target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"= mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan= k">[email protected]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jed Laundry<br= ><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 3 May 2019 11:21 a.m.<br><b>To:</b> Peter Lambrechtse= n; nznog<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [nznog] Using Cloudflare after Christchurch= <u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><= /p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p = class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma= l">InternetNZ are working on a well-considered response and I do support th= em, but I don't think they are the only organisation or group where thi= s should be discussed. Especially where operational decisions are involved = which may have downstream effects. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D= "MsoNormal"><br>I agree with Peter and Michael; the argument that "it&= #39;s just content" and that ISPs have no role in layer 8+ policy deci= sions is a bit disingenuous, because we regularly filter our customers from= bad things. We run spam filters, we block malware sites, we choose to stop= working with abusive customers; we (try to) make the internet a hostile pl= ace for bad people to operate. This isn't censorship--they can still ge= t content online--we just don't make it easy for them.<u></u><u></u></p= ></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>Cloudfl= are have taken a commercial position based on a very US-centric "free = speech" world view that they, effectively, shouldn't try to do any= of this. Personally, I can understand their position, but I don't agre= e with it. Lacking any US amendment, the seemingly only way to change this = commercial position is to apply commercial pressure, which is the point tha= t Peter is making; is anyone considering operational changes to apply comme= rcial pressure?<br><br>I know on the consumer side, at $DAYJOB we're lo= oking at edge services. Cloudflare are of course one of the options. Based = on my personal experience with my free account I was going to strongly back= them, but their continued non-response to these events has made me reconsi= der that and my personal IT involvement with them.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Jed.<b= r><br><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>= </u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, 3 May 2019 at 11:06, Peter= Lambrechtsen <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ= et=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockqu= ote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-le= ft:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;mar= gin-right:0cm"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have tried tweeting=C2=A0= eastdakota when I was doxed and haven't had a response. If you get a re= sponse I would be interested.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">= <u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I highly reco= mmend you ask him the pointed question about the AUP of Cloudflare as brevi= ty of it speaks volumes:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"= ><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https= ://www.cloudflare.com/terms/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://= www.cloudflare.com/terms/</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo= rmal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">And ask him= why *all* the most vile sites on the internet seem to only use his service= s for WAF/DDoS protection and none of the other providers and why he doesn&= #39;t do anything about it. It's no mistake that there isn't any va= lidation of the email address you use when signing up to the Cloudflare ser= vice.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></= u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers, Peter<u></u><u></u></p></di= v></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p c= lass=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:44 AM Mehmet Akcin <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">mehmet@ak= cin.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-t= op:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,= 204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><= div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you have concerns, email the ceo or tweet him= @eastdakota. Good guy, reasonable, and he will take time respond. I know p= eople who work there. They are not going to let anyone malicious use their = platform knowingly.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal= "><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=98Mehmet= <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p= ><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 15:14 Michael Finc= ham <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target= =3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><b= lockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;bor= der-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8= pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, 3 May 2019 09:10:50 +12= 00<br>Jonathan Brewer <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"no= referrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><br>>= InternetNZ is the forum to discuss this, not NZNOG.<br><br>Engineers have = a personal responsibility to ensure that the actions they take, even on beh= alf of an employer, are ethically right.<br><br>I do think therefore this i= s a discussion for NZNOG, being as it is a community of engineers who do th= e implementing.<br><br>-- <br>Michael<br>__________________________________= _____________<br>NZNOG mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:NZNOG-+wOGpAKf4av/[email protected]= .ac.nz" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><b= r><a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog= </a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u= ></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mehmet<br>+1-424-298-1903<u></u= ><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">__________________________________= _____________<br>NZNOG mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:NZNOG-+wOGpAKf4av/[email protected]= .ac.nz" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a><b= r><a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog= </a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">___________= ____________________________________<br>NZNOG mailing list<br><a href=3D"ma= ilto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">NZNOG@l= ist.waikato.ac.nz</a><br><a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/list= info/nznog" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz= /mailman/listinfo/nznog</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div= >_______________________________________________<br> NZNOG mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b= lank">[email protected]</a><br> <a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"norefe= rrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listi= nfo/nznog</a><br> </blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> NZNOG mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= ikato.ac.nz</a><br> <a href=3D"https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog" rel=3D"norefe= rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog</= a><br> </blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail-m_262093280= 2314730248gmail_signature">Mehmet<br>+1-424-298-1903</div> </blockquote></div> --000000000000f0f8c7058f569c9a-- --===============1548306104== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list [email protected] https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog --===============1548306104==--