Re: FSUG-Kochi-Discuss Digest, Vol 23, Issue 5

guys,
 check out kubuntu, Ubuntus KDE based solution
regards
Deepak

 On 10/8/05, fsug-kochi-discuss-request-8H24Gfgyrqprzt3WPRo2bV6hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org <
fsug-kochi-discuss-request-8H24Gfgyrqprzt3WPRo2bV6hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: KDE vs GNOME war (Anoop Alias)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:36:41 +0530
> From: Anoop Alias <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [fsug-kochi-discuss] KDE vs GNOME war
> To: Tinku Sampath <[email protected]>
> Cc: fsug-kochi-discuss-8H24Gfgyrqprzt3WPRo2bV6hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org, [email protected],
> Principal Support List of FSF-India <fsf-friends-rmfFjpsnoN/[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <f75afc1f0510082106v78a5f20bw6256e617b258a076-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I dont know much about the war between GNOME nd KDE ...but eventually it
> is
> giving (like everything else in LINUX) end users choice!. and it is what
> we
> practice on that really matters...i am relatively new so i started off in
> GNOME... now i find working with GNOME fine! than KDE and I know one
> person
> who have been using KDE for a long time ...and he likes to be in KDE(even
> when the default of many distro now is GNOME)
> and I think UBUNTU has not turned off that feature of Nautilus but thy
> have
> made a hack to it that previous windows auto-closes when new ones are
> opened......................
>
> regards,
> Anoop
>
> On 10/8/05, Tinku Sampath <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > The great battle between the two most popular ( sorry.... if my word
> hurt
> > any one whose use other lightweight desktops ...) KDE and GNOME (i am
> not
> > the one who can decide which one is better ... ) continues. Here i am
> not
> > concerned about spread the war to this mailing list. But we together can
> > discuss the reasons behind it and conclude with individuals comments.
> >
> > GNU/Linux is taking small steps.. or creeping... towards desktop users.
> As
> > far as the desktop environments, which are built upon Xwindow system,
> are
> > concerned, they are gaining popularity and their look and feel and also
> the
> > performance are improving with each new releases. Users in the free
> software
> > will have so many choices. From hundreds of GNU/Linux distributions to
> > admirable no. of quality desktops... the same things happens in the
> field of
> > applications.
> >
> > But what is there for the fresh users to the world of GNU/Linux?.
> > Initially they will be confused in choosing a GNU/Linux distribution at
> > first which satisfies their requirements. The next difficult thing will
> be
> > finding the application which will satisfy their day to day work they
> > continued with other proprietary systems. But the desktop environments
> are
> > the most important instances which will stick the users with GNU/Linux.
> So
> > each desktop project has to be working to make the things done with
> > easiness. But something strange in happening for past few months. The
> fight
> > between KDE and GNOME is there from the beginning of the GNOME project
> which
> > was started in protesting in the change of license of Trolltech Qt
> > development tool, tool to develop KDE, to proprietary. But later
> Trolltech
> > changed its license in to a dual license scheme which allows free use of
> qt
> > for the applications released under GNU GPL V2.0. But the GNOME project
> > continued and also turned as desktop environment favored by geeks and
> > developers (may be for new users!). A lot of companies like Novell, Sun,
> Red
> > Hat etc started supporting GNOME... and few of the distributions changed
> > their default desktop environment in to GNOME from KDE.. But majorities
> are
> > still staying with KDE giving a second rank to the GNOME. But the fight
> > between these two environments are now in to public. This is visible if
> you
> > go through previous few issues of Tux Magazine (
> http://www.tuxmagazine.com
> > ) <http://www.tuxmagazine.com/>.
> >
> > As a newbie GNU/Linux magazine, Tux Magazine's publishers make things
> > going in KDE way. That means they are answering basic queries
> considering
> > KDE as most users working environment. They may be right since all of we
> > admit the fact that majority are KDE users than those who use GNOME.
> Since
> > KDE gives a polished look like other proprietary systems (eg: Mac OS)
> and it
> > is highly customizable than any other operating desktop in the world.
> > Additions to this it provides quality applications of almost all kind.
> The
> > KDE factor was also visible in the 2005 READER'S CHOICE AWARDS conducted
> by
> > the magazine vendors on August. (Refer September 2005 issue of Tux
> > Magazine).
> >
> > A lots of letters are coming to include more GNOME flavor equal to that
> of
> > KDE. But the publishers are reluctant to give more recognition to GNOME.
> > They continue to reply why they are strictly following KDE by showing
> only
> > the user base. There is section called Q&A with Mango Parfait where
> newbies
> > can ask Mango Parfait, a young woman (or may be acting like a young
> woman),
> > for help. But her comments and way of convincing is not liked by a few
> users
> > (or most?.. I can't say.. But i like her presentation... ). After
> hundreds
> > of request from GNOME followers, finally she burst flames towards GNOME
> in
> > the September issue of Q&A section. Her few comments are as follows ...
> >
> > *" Hint to GNOME developers: some of GNOME is okay, but most of it works
> > like you hate users. Some of GNOME runs like you think users are too
> stupid
> > to wipe themselves. What do you do for these users? You do not make
> GNOME
> > easy. You just take away their toilet paper and force users to wipe
> > themselves your way. Some of GNOME runs like you want users to suffer.
> The
> > file open and save dialog is worse than bamboo shoots under fingernails.
> > Better to call Nautilus an attack from space invaders than a spacial
> file
> > manager. Here is my advice. Make your monkey-brain environment a
> > configuration option if you want to keep using GNOME your way. The rest
> of
> > us are not monkeys. Give us a default desktop for humans. If you keep
> having
> > no clue, less and less people will use GNOME, and the only GNOME users
> will
> > be monkey-brain GNOME developers. "*
> >
> > But the request for GNOME coverage continues. One of the user's comment
> is
> > as follows ...
> >
> > *" More GNOME Coverage. I read the latest TUX today, and somebody asked
> > the same question as me. Why not more GNOME coverage? Your response was
> that
> > KDE is the preference of most new users. What distro are they using?
> Because
> > in another breath, you heartily recommend Fedora, which uses GNOME as
> its
> > standard desktop. And that's not even mentioning the popularity of
> Ubuntu. -
> > Robert Holmes "
> >
> > *After lots of protest against magazines coverage and Mango's comments,
> > Tux publisher NICHOLAS PETRELEY addressed readers with more specific
> reasons
> > for their GNOME hate. A few of his comments from the P2P column of this
> > moth's Tux...
> >
> > " *What bothers me is not GNOME, but that we critics of GNOME have been
> > accused of disliking GNOME simply because we don't understand it. I
> don't
> > think that's the case, but if we really don't understand it, shouldn't
> that
> > tell you something? Why wouldn't we understand it? Could it be because
> GNOME
> > is one of the most unintuitive, inconsistent desktop environments ever
> > designed? Could it be because GNOME keeps undergoing dramatic changes in
> its
> > philosophy toward how a desktop should behave?...
> >
> > Indeed, the frequent overhauls to the philosophical approach to how a
> > desktop should behave puts GNOME evangelists and defenders in a very
> awkward
> > position. Take Nautilus, the file manager, for example. "It's great
> because
> > it does everything." When GNOME dumped the buggy Midnight Commander file
> > manager in favor of the original version of Nautilus, the hype was all
> about
> > how Nautilus would be a Swiss Army knife for GNOME. It was a file
> manager,
> > browser, system administration tool, package manager and more. It was
> > considered the core component of GNOME. See
> > http://www.businesswire.com/webbox/ bw.032001/210790539.htm for a sample
> > press release in 2001. "It's great because it's so simple and does only
> > basic tasks." Later, GNOME developers decided to rip out most of the
> > features in Nautilus and strip it down to basics for the benefit of
> speed
> > and ease of use. But if you read the press release mentioned above, the
> > original point of making Nautilus do everything imaginable was for the
> > benefit of "ease of use". So which approach actually made GNOME easier
> to
> > use?
> >
> >
> > "It's great because it has a revolutionary new spatial design." Then
> > Nautilus morphed into a "spatial" file manager. This "spatial" file
> manager
> > was supposedly revolutionary, although anyone who has used OS/2 knows
> > better. The idea was that every folder should have its own size and
> place on
> > the desktop, which gives that folder a unique "spatial identity". Every
> time
> > you opened a folder, that folder would appear in the same position and
> size
> > on the desktop you had used the
> > last time you visited that folder. Unfortunately, whenever you open a
> new
> > folder, the previous folder window remains on screen. As you navigate
> deeper
> > through subfolders, your screen becomes cluttered with open windows.
> When I
> > complained to a GNOME advocate about this behavior, his response was
> that I
> > could change the default behavior of Nautilus back to the way it used to
> > work by changing a registry setting. A registry setting? That's GNOME's
> idea
> > of ease of use?
> > Eventually the Nautilus developers relented and added a preferences
> option
> > to choose between the new "spatial" behavior and the old explorer
> version of
> > Nautilus. "It's great because it's not spatial anymore." Now I've
> downloaded
> > and installed the preview of Ubuntu 5.1, which includes the latest
> version
> > of
> > GNOME. I assume that GNOME still makes the "spatial" behavior of
> Nautilus
> > the default behavior. I don't know. But Ubuntu makes Nautilus default to
> an
> > explorer mode that works similarly to prior versions of Nautilus. This
> > raises the question, if the "spatial" approach to file management was so
> > terrific and simply misunderstood and underappreciated, why did the
> Ubuntu
> > team decide not to use it by default? I'd applaud the change, but the
> new
> > Nautilus explorer mode includes one of the most abominable features ever
> > conceived, ostensibly "borrowed" from the hideous GNOME file picker. In
> one
> > of the toolbars, you'll see a back arrow, after which buttons appear as
> you
> > navigate through folders. Each button represents a folder, a subfolder,
> a
> > sub-subfolder and so on, as a history of where you've been. If you go
> back
> > one step, it keeps the extra button there, in case you want to go
> forward
> > again. Why buttons are supposed to represent folders is a mystery to me.
> But
> > here's a bigger mystery. If you navigate deep enough, there's no room
> for
> > all the buttons, so a scroller appears. A scroller for buttons? Now
> that's
> > revolutionary. This is especially a problem with the file picker, where
> > there's even less space for the buttons. Worse, I still haven't figured
> out
> > why the back arrow I mentioned earlier creates two buttons called home
> and
> > then changes into an icon that, if clicked, takes me to the top level of
> the
> > entire filesystem. This
> > is intuitive? Here's the point. GNOME defenders can rant all they want
> > about how critics simply misunderstand it. The problem illustrated by
> the
> > crazy history of Nautilus is that there's no "it" to misunderstand. If
> "it"
> > is so great, why does "it" keep going through so many radical changes in
> > philosophy? I have sympathy for longtime GNOME advocates because they've
> had
> > to defend both the original designs and the contradictory overhauls as
> being
> > the best approach..... *"
> >
> > ... and the publisher concludes as follows....
> >
> > " *So, many of the people who complain that we are obsessed with KDE and
> > never deal with GNOME, obviously aren't reading TUX. Has someone told
> GNOME
> > fans and evangelists to spam us with these letters? I don't know. But if
> so,
> > it's time to call off your dogs. TUX will become a GNOME-focused
> magazine
> > the day GNOME users vastly outnumber KDE users. So if you GNOME fans
> want
> > more GNOME coverage, I suggest you improve GNOME first. Until then,
> we'll
> > continue to publish according to the balance that we believe serves our
> > readers best.* "
> >
> >
> > What is happening every where?. Are you coming to my point?. The fight
> > continues and have reached at a stage that must be seriously considered
> by
> > every member of the Free Software community. I have a doubt. If GNOME is
> not
> > great enough ( I am extensive KDE user from the beginning... No doubt in
> > it... I tried GNOME at each of its release.. But i am not satisfied a
> little
> > bit about it in considering as my desktop... I can't see any of my
> friends
> > using GNOME as their desktop... I can see a few other people who are
> newbie
> > to GNU/Linux using GNOME since most of the beginners start with Fedora
> and
> > go for a personal desktop installation where the Red Hat guys continues
> to
> > deselect KDE from their install section as default... Fact that, most of
> > them don't know there is a feature rich polished alternate desktop named
> KDE
> > ...), then why it can't be improved?. I don't know whether you know this
> > fact. The birth of Mandrakelinux ( now Mandriva Linux) is a result of
> this
> > war which started long ago when Red Hat removed KDE from their
> distribution
> > supporting only GNOME. But after the popularity of Mandrakelinux, Red
> Hat
> > was pressurised to include KDE with their distro but still GNOME as
> default.
> > Even nowadays Red Hat is showing their excessive discrimination towards
> KDE.
> > Most people ( including me ) are away from Fedora due to this attitude.
> Is
> > GNOME is preferred since GTK is purely under GNU GPL?.
> >
> > I can see two types of outcome from this fight...
> >
> > Positive factor : This fight may create a competing environment in FOSS
> > field and may result in the improvement and enhancements of each of the
> > desktops.
> > Negative factor: Rather than concentrating in the spread of GNU/Linux
> and
> > FOSS across the world, rather than fighting against those actions that
> will
> > wipe out the freedom in software field, this can make the community
> > development to a debate and result in a creepy progress for free
> software
> > revolution.
> >
> > What you think about all these? Comments please....
> >
> > - Tinku Sampath
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
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> End of FSUG-Kochi-Discuss Digest, Vol 23, Issue 5
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