Re: India's IP policies and US lawmakers.

Now we are getting somewhere!
Before was all the ...ismd (socialism, etc.), then it was "stealing" but
now when the capitalist Apple, Amazon, etc. steal patents, it is "patent
troll"! My father stated stealing is stealing however one colours it or
justifies it - so the courts have to decide as to whether the capitalists
stole patents from a University or not.
In India's case, it was the highest court (Supreme Court) which applied the
nation's laws - so now if their decision is not in agreement with
capitalist way of stealing money from those who can least afford it so that
they can have their steaks, well too bad! They should take the case to WTO
and International Tribunals but not have a proxy stating "stealing" - this
is the real point! and so tiring to read in this e-mail chains,

Best wishes,


On 4 July 2013 09:21, Banibrata Dutta <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Banibrata Dutta <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Well... hunger / starvation are nice bogies to rake up, when it comes to
>> India, as are seers who sleep on bed of nails and rope climbing tricks !
>> While hunger and starvation are facts, but using that as an excuse to
>> avoid discussing or arguing about the social-righteousness of blatant /
>> blind and unconditional patenting, is not acceptable.
>>
>> The real point of argument, which is being circumvented with all this
>> smoke-and-mirrors talk is -- "fair usage of patenting". Since "fair" is
>> subjective, it must be taboo -- right ?
>>
>>
> Forget fairness of patents... here is an example of reputed university
> behaving like a patent troll...
>
>
> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/patent-wielding-boston-u-seeks-ban-on-apple-amazon-samsung-products/
>
>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My reply generated some spirited response.  Links were thrown at readers
>>> and  statistics from  some websites were referred to making Google richer
>>> by a few cents in this process.   Some kind of statment was tried to be
>>> made by quoting some numbers. Numbers crunching is better suited on finance
>>> or accounting forums.  We generally discuss policy on this forum. And, this
>>> particular thread is directly about policy.
>>> So, I was expecting someone to justify a policy based on idea that
>>> stealing is good or bad for economy.  I am still trying to get an answer.
>>>
>>> Anyway, Let me summarize my observations on what I saw in responses to
>>> my post:
>>>
>>> 1. Socialism:  A fool-proof way to get angry response from some readers
>>> is to mention India and socialism in the same line. I really do not
>>> understand why should it be so? Has  the word socialism or socialist become
>>> somekind of a slur word?  Why do some people feel insulted, or offended
>>> when India and its policies on various issues referred to as a socialist
>>> policy? Is use of word socialism during discussion considered  derogatory?
>>> If the word  "socialist" or "socialism" has become a slur word, then it
>>> is a matter of grave concern because the Constitution of Indian mentions
>>> the word socalism in its preamble and says  what India is: "SOVEREIGN
>>> SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC".
>>>
>>> So, the Indian people who get offended by the word socialist are either
>>> ignorant that India is a socialist country, or the Indian education has
>>> failed in instilling  the pride and confidence in the socialist identity.
>>>
>>> 2. People dying by falling from trains in Mumbai:  I deliberately
>>> presented this example because the people who die by falling from train are
>>> victim of socialist policies.
>>> They do not die from some random accident. These people hang from window
>>> railings, or door bars, or anything else that they can get there hands on
>>> because the trains are  crowded that there is no space inside.  The odds
>>> are against them. These people generally suffer from a disease far more
>>> deadly and prevalent than cancer. This diesease is commonly known as
>>> hunger. Some people call it starvation. These people have to make a very
>>> difficult choice of dying of starvation or dying by falling from train.  A
>>> person suffering from cancer can live for a long time. But, I have not
>>> heard of any hungry or starving person living for more than a few weeks or
>>> month.  The Indian railway which claims to be run on socilist polcies has
>>> failed in providing a safe transportation to users. Such deaths can be
>>> easily avoided by making sufficient investment in transportation
>>> infrastructure. This can be done without stealing IP.
>>>
>>>
>>> 3.  The fact that Indian education  has failed to produce innovators and
>>> problem solvers who can be counted on to solve India's problem is self
>>> evident.  I will leave it to the link-searchers and number producer to use
>>> the search skills to dig out the statistics using Google (or some open
>>> source search engine if available).  I am more worried about the vicious
>>> circle that India seems to be stuck in. Its ill-effect are two fold. First,
>>> we are not creating  system, or process, to solve the problems of India due
>>> to not having enough problem solvers amongst us.  Second, we are not
>>> leaving enough role-models for the generation next to learn from and get
>>> inspired from.  So, do not expect much from the next generation if the
>>> current generation does not know what it is doing.  Look at the current
>>> ones first.
>>>
>>> In my previous post I wrote. "The system that produces people who want
>>> to steal, also produces the people who sit in judgment,  through Supreme
>>> Courts, high courts, or other regulatory bodies. "
>>>
>>> May I add that  the system also produces people who  write tirelessly in
>>> media and discussion forums  to justify violation of property rights.
>>>
>>> 4.    For someone who  really wants to help cancer patients with
>>> expensive drugs, an ethical response could be to pool their money and buy
>>> drugs for the patients rather than stealing it from the IP owner.
>>>
>>> There are a number of  legitimate ways to help poor and needy.  But,
>>> stealing is not one of them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Ratnendra Pandey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: RE: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
>>> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:54:09 -0700
>>>
>>>
>>> Ashjit,
>>> I am glad you asked. But, a better question would have been what the
>>> supreme court ruling means to Indians and India.
>>> As far the patent holders are  concerned, to them  it is a loss and any
>>> loss, howsoever small , is still a loss.
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell,  US government is not going to scramble B-52
>>> bombers to destroy the plants where these drugs are produced illegally, per
>>> the US law.
>>> But, we are
>>>
>>>
>>> I have different perspective on this matter to analyze cost and benefit
>>> allowing India to produce drugs from stolen IP.
>>>
>>> A far more number of people die every year in India for simple things
>>> like dirty water or dirty air.
>>> India does not need to steal expensive IP  to save her people from
>>> simple and avoidable deaths like those from simple diseases  like cholera,
>>> diearreaha etc and from other simple causes like death by falling from
>>> overcrowded trains in mumbai suburban system. As far as I can tell from my
>>> unscientific observation, the number of people who could be saved by drugs
>>> from stolen IP are very few (any idea how many patients die from cancer
>>> than from other waterborne and airborne diseases)?
>>> But, you see, in socialist countries like India where government has to
>>> showcase what it is doing, revoking patents on cancer drugs is likely to
>>> get more votes than saving thousands of people who die every year from
>>> simple things like cholera.  It also stokes felling of nationalism when
>>> Indian government is seen as fighting a profit seeking American drug
>>> company.
>>>
>>> Cancer is never epidemic. At anytime it affects a very limited number of
>>> people.  A few cancer patients might be saved by these drugs. Not all
>>> patient will survive even with these drugs. So for the benefit of  a very
>>> small minority of patient who were unfortunate enough to suffer from
>>> cancer, we are subjecting the rest of 1.2 billion Indians to moral
>>> corruption and unethical environment that comes from stolen IP or living
>>> off someone else's hardwork or money.  So much for the self-reliant
>>> Indians. Is eating stolen food or treating with stolen drugs
>>> self-reliance?
>>>
>>> But, the damage to Indian psyche and character caused by stolen IP is
>>> far more than the benefit that might come from it. I have not heard of
>>> anyone attaining wealth or prosperity from robbery or stealing. Karma, good
>>> or bad, always catches up.
>>>
>>> Just look at what happened in last twenty years. Indian joined the IT
>>> revolution in its infancy, but today, twenty years later,  India is no more
>>> than a supplier of a  large number of cheap H1B type workers.
>>>
>>> When Indian foreign minister or other official visits Washington, they
>>> invariably ask their US counter parts to increase H1-B visa.  I just fall
>>> into shame when I try to visualize the situation in which the Indian
>>> minister or negotiator looks into eye of an American bureaucrat and starts
>>> the beggary.   "Madam, hamare bachhoon ko H1-B visa de do. [ Madam, can you
>>> give H1-B visas to our kids?].  It is a shame that in the last twenty
>>> years, India could not upgrade itself from being a supplier of large
>>> manpower and not much more. What is more shameful is that Indian economic
>>> system is incapable of absorbing its own supply of human resource.  By the
>>> way this all happened when you had  a Prime Minister who is a Gold Medal
>>> Winner and a "Topper" besides being a recipient many honorary doctoral
>>> degrees.
>>>
>>> The best from India, yes from one of those IITs, a system of  white
>>> elephants that guzzle a large amount of taxpayers money each year to
>>> produce sub-par engineers most of whom are no better than engineers
>>> produced at the likes of Tolaram Moolchand College of Science, Engineering,
>>> and Technology, Benampet, Hamara Pradesh.
>>>
>>> Just look at this contrast. The smartest Indian kid can solve 300 IIT
>>> style question in 3 minutes, a feat that an American kid can never
>>> achieve.  However, every so many years, an American kid comes up with some
>>> simple and innovative idea that changes the shape of the economy. A
>>> Microsoft, Facebook,  Google, or Apple is created and the best Indian minds
>>> are hired  to do the repetitive work.  An Indian minister begs for H1-B
>>> visas.
>>>
>>> Indian system has failed in giving character so badly needed to be
>>> original, innovative, and risk taking. Rot learning is encouraged.
>>> Stealing is justified in one way or another. An impression is generally
>>> created that progress is not possible without using unfair means. The
>>> system that produces people who want to steal, also produces the people who
>>> sit in judgment,  through Supreme Courts, high courts, or other regulatory
>>> bodies. So, you get the ruling of the kind Supreme Court gave justifying
>>> stealing patents.
>>>
>>> When I was a small child, I was raised with an idea that when wealth is
>>> lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost;  and when
>>> character is lost, everything is lost.
>>>
>>> I am saddened to see that Indian  legal system encourages immoral
>>> activities that will further degrade  Indian character and ethos.
>>>
>>> We will never be independent, innovative, and original so long as we are
>>> encouraging unethical short cuts.  Not being able to stand on our feet is
>>> far more  damaging to India than anything else.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Ratnendra Pandey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:17:01 +0530
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: [india-gii] India's IP policies and US lawmakers.
>>>
>>> Can someone shed light on which IP policies they are talking about here:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7OHPpGiNbNqk5r0UI3USDN/India-not-willing-to-play-by-the-rules-US-lawmakers.html
>>>
>>> “Like all of you, my blood boils when I hear that India is revoking and
>>> denying patents and granting compulsory licences for cancer treatments or
>>> adopting local content requirements,” he said. “As a nation, we should
>>> handle India like my dad did when I was growing up and I made his blood
>>> boil: He put his arm around me and or pulled me where he would go, to make
>>> sure his fingers were resting firmly on my shoulder just to inflict some
>>> pain if I diverted from the course we would go down. That’s what we should
>>> do with their government,” Olson said. (Congressman from Texas)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards
>>> Ashijit
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> regards,
>> Banibrata
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>
>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> Banibrata
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>
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