Re: NEWSWEEK: Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School

An interesting quote from Lenin, and an equally interesting interpretation. Freedom from private ownership, in my reading of the same quote, nowhere implies government ownership. In fact, he specifically talks about joint stock ownership. For the rest, the field was open. 


In the matter of the airwaves, the Supreme Court has ruled that public ownership must prevail, but the  interpretation has been stoutly read as government control. 


That state may indeed wither away one day, but if it doesn't learn to cherry pick causes, where to keep guidance, where to keep control, where to keep ownership, that's going to take a long time. 


Note that in India, other than joint stock and government ownership, there is no vision about other forms of public ownership. Cooperatives and movements have been sidelined, and unions almost fully subverted by political parties. The failures in the corporate sector to accept a meaningful share of the responsibility for the public weal also have little redressal.


Vickram


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From:"Ratnendra Pandey" <[email protected]>
Date:Wed, 1 Apr, 2015 at 7:36 am
Subject:Re: [india-gii] NEWSWEEK: Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School

Banibrata,

You wrote:
I hope you are not trying to side step the what I'd questioned that boils 
down to:
- Why should 'free-speech' be prerogative of some while not be of others ? 
That's pretty feudalistic, come to think of it, and it is what draws the 
class lines.
- Why should government not protect the weak ?

Your FIRST QUESTION: - Why should 'free-speech' be 
prerogative of some while not be of others ? 
That's pretty feudalistic, come to think of it, and it is what draws the 
class lines.

OK, let me answer this:

The following is exact quote from the V. I. Lenin  Draft Resolution On 
Freedom Of The Press
 https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/nov/04.htm

[QUOTE]
For the bourgeoisie, freedom of the press meant freedom for the rich to 
publish and for the capitalists to control the newspapers, a practice which 
in all countries, including even the freest, produced a corrupt press.

For the workers’ and peasants’ government, freedom of the press means 
liberation of the press from capitalist oppression, and public ownership of 
paper mills and printing presses; equal right for public groups of a certain 
size (say, numbering 10,000) to a fair share of newsprint stocks and a 
corresponding quantity of printers’ labour. 

[UNQUOTE]

For the communists and the socialist, the idea of free press is a full 
control of  government over means of production and distribution of 
information, apparently to liberate the press from capitalist oppression, or 
to use your words, from the "feudalistic" influence.

Basically what communists and socialist wants is Government to control 
information and citizens to remain at mercy of government agencies, like 
censors board, press council of India etc.  Sorry, this is not called 
freedom of speech. We have tried this before with disastrous results. And 
also, the less said the better about the state of media in Russia and China, 
where there is very little freedom to  private  media. We do not want to 
copy the Russia and China model into India. 

Your SECOND QUESTION: - Why should government not protect the weak ?

Answer to the above:
Government should sure protect weak but should not make every one else 
weaker in the process.  The idea of helping weak should not mean making 
every one else weaker by  taking away peoples  personal liberties by 
over-legislation or over-regulation, or prohibition of activities, Helping 
weak should not mean  stealing money from one group of people and 
transferring to another group by taxation, nationalization,  or creating 
inflation, or by reducing personal freedom by other means. 


Sincerely,
Ratnendra Pandey

From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:22:56 +0530
Subject: Re: [india-gii] NEWSWEEK: Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; india-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]

Ratnendra,

Perhaps you are reading too much between the lines.Did I write anywhere that the entire class businessmen, entrepreneurs, industrialists are perpetrators and evil, and entire middle/lower class (economically and socially) strata of society needs protection from the evil class or anything of that sort, where government is to play a role ? Where is this "warfare" ? I hope you are not trying to side step the what I'd questioned that boils down to:

- Why should 'free-speech' be prerogative of some while not be of others ? That's pretty feudalistic, come to think of it, and it is what draws the class lines.

- Why should government not protect the weak ? 

Strange, don't you think that governments goes out on an arm and a leg to protect sick industries (bailouts), weak businesses built on wrong premises and false promises, yet should not come to the protection of the masses it represents when they need protection. Real world is clearly not digital, i.e. far from being "binary", it is based on system of "irrational numbers" (mathematically speaking).


I see no reason to view economy and governance with polarized glasses, where you can see certain things bright when viewed one way, and same things dark when viewed another way. There are honest businesses, who do business with integrity and then there are others who do it at a great economic and social cost in a highly unfair manner. On one hand, you question "society" (and I hope you'd not disagree that Sarbajit, Peri etc. are part of this society) from raising voice as per the same free-speech / freedom-of-expression that you seem to espouse (which is a good thing), but on the other hand also question "government's" role to keep the checks-n-balances in place. Now who wouldn't like to 'bake the cake and have it too', eh ? :-) However, there is a need to be fairer than that.

cheers,

Banibrata


On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 2:27 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]> wrote:

Ok Banibrata,  so this discussion has already degenerated into a class warfare, between the haves and have nots? I am assuming next you will say you need government to protect have nots. Even though the experience points to the fact that when govt control is strong, a few rich, wealthy, and politically connected people contole govt machinery rendering the middle class and poor at the mercy of government killing free enterprise and risk taking. 

Why can't communusts and socialists understand that rich and powerful eventually take control and hide behind the government machinery ? Giving  government enormous power only makes life difficult for have nots and Middle class. Weaker the government, weaker the control rich have over have nots.
Look for these two word 

Regulatory capture
Corporatism 

Sincerely,
Ratnendra Pandey

From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:33:39 +0530


Subject: Re: [india-gii] NEWSWEEK: Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; india-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]

Wish I could unlearn to reach a childlike stage of innocence to believe the following statement to be true, alas many of use are doomed by what life has taught us.

"...when information is allowed to flow freely, good information and bad information clash and force people to evaluate them and go by what works for them..."

Sorry, hate to burst that little utopian bubble, especially in context of India (and perhaps much of the world as we know it today). That is, in all probability, a just a convenient little argument that seeks to protect the "information control", while it is still in the hands of the haves. The have-nots shall remain "fools", for the information deliberately presented to them has been "coloured" by those who could. Government needs the businesses, and the businesses need worker ants. Information (and intelligence) is what keeps the control, in the present form. 



On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]> wrote:

From the belief system that you are operating from, you expect government to protect fools. It is just not possible even if you put a zipper on everyone's mouth. 

What you cannot seem to appreciate is that when information is allowed to flow freely, good information and bad information clash and force people to evaluate them and go by what works for them. Users of the information generally cross check quality of information with their own experience and with information from others. This is how false hoods are challenged and smashed. 

Yes, People with higher sense  of superiority and carrying some kind of divine burden to help fools do cause more damage.

Free flow of information makes it easy to fight falsehood. It also makes people, including the fools, 
smart user of information once they learn how to analyze and critique an information.

Sincerely,
Ratnendra Pandey

From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:42:41 +0530


Subject: Re: [india-gii] NEWSWEEK: Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; india-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]

Is it not government's job to protect the ordinary citizen against harm ? I do not see, how suing a city that allows snake-oil salesman to operate is wrong ?

Where is the sense of superiority in doing something that one considers the right thing to do ? One doesn't need to be an expert in calling a spade a spade !

And is Sarbajit the first one to do so ? Shivam Vij, Maheshwar Peri, Outlook360, Caravan, IBN-Live are wrong in their assessment ?

Fair enough, it is possible that all of them are wrong, but why did IIPM sue Google ? It's a search engine. If that isn't asinine, then I fail to understand, how is suing city is -- given that the city (government) had an obligation.

Refresher:
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/dot-orders-blocking-of-73-urls-with-content-critical-of-iipm-including-a-ugc-notice-report/373152-11.html
http://www.livemint.com/Specials/13TE2UEtexMf1GDeEt5rCP/Maheshwer-Peris-long-way-around.html

Wasn't the 'freedom of speech and expression' of Shivam, Maheswar etc. infringed upon ? Taking away the freedom of someone engaging in highly questionable business, just by raising questions is not defamatory. If the raised questions have believable answers, there is no reputation tarnished and no damage done. I am no expert in jurisprudence, but my casual reading of material around the 'First Amendment' and it's relation to the 'Defamation' laws seems to indicate the superiority of the former, in the latter being no 'excuse'... And, BTW, I've to admit that I did have to refresh myself regarding this matter using Wikipedia :-)




On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:15 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <pandey-PkbjNfxxIASIwRZHo2/[email protected]> wrote:

Banibratta, the problem is some one with heightened sense of superiority thinking of himself snake oil expert taking absurd step like asking all snakes to be killed. Or worst, suing city for allowing a snake salesman to open a shop on footpath and holding it responsible for fake oil. 

There are way to fight false information. But over legislation and taking away others freedom is not one of them. 

Sincerely, 
Ratnendra Pandey

From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 23:57:32 +0530


Subject: Re: [india-gii] NEWSWEEK: Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; india-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]

Somehow reading this response gives me the impression that  calling out someone selling snake-oil is a bad thing. If someone is making money by hook or crook, it is their prerogative (thanks to their superior, even if sinister intelligence) and that it is none of your business to meddle with it ! Pretty much sums up 'capitalism in it's present form -- BTW' !! I hope that I've misunderstood the intent and the jist.. :-)

Your last statement is what I find no fault with, and tend to agree every bit - strangely, with every passing year, we only seem to grow closer in our attempts to emulate the country of 'milk n honey' (or the 'corn fed democracy'), where what is free-speech and who is free to indulge in free-speech is determined by who has the money (& wields the stick).



On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]> wrote:

Banibratta, personally I believe no one is idiot. But, there are many who disagree with me. They think making laws, suppressing personal freedom, fighting frivolous lawsuits, threatening knowledge makers and information carriers is their pious duty. Such people operate in belief that somehow idiots are incapable of learning on their own. I disagree with that kind of thinking. I think everyone should be given an opportunity to learn. We should present the facts and logic and let information consumers decide for themselves. 

Unfortunately, india operates on the false logic of suppressing speech to protect idiots, which govt thinks the citizen of India are. Else why do we restrictions on books, films, speech and any information that someone objects to.

Sincerely,
Ratnendra Pandey

From: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:30:57 +0530
Subject: Re: [india-gii] NEWSWEEK: Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]; india-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]



Not quite sure which part of the article gives anyone the impression that there is any kind of legal sanction against Wikipedia ?

Quality of journalism these days is definitely questionable, and this article isn't a shining exception either. However, the article seemed factual  and in my view, subtly tells us what "we" already know, i.e.everything one reads on the internet is not true (with reality being quite to the contrary), and clearly Wikipedia is no exception, however what is ?


The fact that people who have had a long association with the internet, the IT world, have had access to unlimited flow of conspiracy theories (many that seem to be backed by extremely strong reason) have managed to overcome their naivety, and are thus careful in trusting "sources of knowledge" (including news papers, blogs and collaborative online encyclopedias). Heck, for that matter, I think all of us "know better" (or we believe that we know better) about what the text-books teach us. Manipulating people through misinformation is nothing new. However, are the rest really "idiots" ? 

India GII is a very tolerant list, which is good. It is a reflection of what a good society should be, giving everyone a chance to air their views - however it is still no justification for making personal attacks. It gives lot more credibility to statements like "misguided activists and diabolical legal heads..." if there were anything to substantiate such views, else it is nothing more than rant and hot air. 



On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 7:51 AM, Ratnendra Pandey <[email protected]> wrote:

This news article is more misleading than the advertisement by school in question. It seeks to create  an impression of some kind of legal sanction against Wikipadea. Am I missing something? At the end of the day it is privilege of a website to decide who keeps an admin and editing privileges. So what is the issue here?

As for some people duped by the said business school, how is that fault of wikipadea? If the said school had a giant billboard next to a road, should the state,or pad, or nhai be responsible for what is written on the bill board.

God save india from these misguided activists and diabolical legal heads like Sarabjit, and the people who write laws that even give some credence to the filings by Sarabjit, and allow strained legal system to be further strained.


I do not see what is so difficult to understand in the idea that you cannot legislate intelligence nor you can protect an idiot no matter how you regulate. Crooks will find ways to dupe fools. It is in best interest of idiots to acquire some intellegence and learn from there own mistakes and from those of others.

Sincerely,
Ratnendra Pandey


From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:58:18 +0530
To: [email protected]
CC: India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
Subject: Re: [india-gii] NEWSWEEK: Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School



Kudos, for a job well done.


On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 9:40 PM, sarbajit roy <[email protected]> wrote:

Manipulating Wikipedia to Promote a Bogus Business School

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/04/03/manipulating-wikipedia-promote-bogus-business-school-316133.html
By Alastair Sloan / March 24, 2015 12:20 PM EDT

Vickram and/or veteran Wikimedians on this channel can know that on 13
March 2015 I had already filed a formal IT Act case concerning
'inter-alia' these gangs of rogue extortionate Wikipedia
administrators hiding behind their anonymity and multiple fictitious
IDs and who have given Indian Wikimedians a bad name.

In my complaint I have asked for "Wifione" to be unmasked and
prosecuted for ruining the lives of thousands of Indian students. My
action was preceded by 2 years of dialog by our side with fellow
Wikipedians / WMF and a 3 month action in Switzerland brought by WMF
against me which then gave me a cause of action to file the IT case in
India.

In our instances, we were subjected to illegal demands and financial
threats since 2013 and my dialog with Wikimedia Foundation's legal
counsel repeatedly ran into a brick wall of solid indifference and
evasions to protect their anonymous admins. It was only thanks to a
proactive Indian board member that things started moving and 5 old
time Wikimedia Admins were eventually "globally banned" in December
2014 as a result of coordinated efforts between veteran members of the
WIKIMEDIA community who had seceded in 2008 from the WMF's "projects"
after realizing what d****b*gs they were.

Sarbajit

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-- 

regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving


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-- 

regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

		 	 		 




-- 

regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

		 	 		 




-- 

regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

		 	 		 




-- 

regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

		 	 		 




-- 

regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

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India-gii mailing list
India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
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