Re: Indian censorship of porn now stupider

mistyped --

Please read:
*... versus what doesn't qualify (as porn that needs to be banned).*

as the following, instead:
*... versus what doesn't qualify (as material that need not be banned).*

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Banibrata Dutta <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:01 AM, Ruchir T <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Well except these stats do not answer any of the questions he asked.
>>
>> 1. How much MONEY is paid by internet porn consumers in India ?
>> 2. Who is being paid ?
>> 3. How much ?
>>
>> Since the reply purports to answer these questions, but does not, here's
>> the most plausible answer.
>> The answer to all three questions is ZERO.
>>
>
> IMHO, a more pertinent question is, what qualifies as porn that must be
> banned, because it has "some" detrimental effect on society, versus what
> doesn't qualify (as porn that needs to be banned).
> What are the problems that get solved, if porn as per this specific
> definition is banned ? If the borderline porn, softcore continues to be
> available, are we certain that the problems won't be there ?
> As for the money trail, if you start counting the revenue from
> borderline/softcore variety, you'd see that it is "significant enough" for
> "the value-chain" to feel the pinch, if it were to be stopped completely.
>
> Hmm. So what does the money trail show ?
>>
>> The consumer is paying the local ISP for service.
>> The local ISP is paying other ISPs for content via content peering
>> relationships.
>> The remote ISPs are probably using this revenue to lower the cost of
>> hosting content provider sites.
>> The remote content producers can recuperate their low production/hosting
>> costs via a few subscriptions in source countries.
>>
>
> Since our (govt's) control and influence is limited to the first 2 legs of
> this value-chain, so might not serve too well for the purpose of this
> discussion, but "few subscriptions in source countries" couldn't explain
> the size of porn Industry in the source countries. It is so trivial to
> search for sources to this information, that I wouldn't want to list them
> here, but just for the sake of proof here's one (quite dated though, 12 yrs
> old, when internet penetration was abysmally low, compared to where we are
> today)
> http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/0524porn.html
>
> Find this world map interesting -
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_by_region
>> In several countries with higher internet penetration than India, is is
>> not legal to distribute porn.
>> The oft-stated connection between (internet) penetration and porn appears
>> dubious.
>>
>> My view is that asking for some content controls would be desirable for
>> healthy internet growth in the long term.
>>
>
> Would you care to elaborate ?
>
> What is "some content controls" ? Who is the best judge on what these
> controls should be ? How do we ensure that these controls are not a
> reflection of "conflicts of interest" for those making the decision ? How
> would be know that the "controls" do not get abused ? How would we measure
> if the controls have the proclaimed & purported effect (as told to the
> public at large) ?
>
> If the controls are like "limit spread / propagation of radical,
> right-wing extremist views / opinion", I think many people might agree,
> however, do we have the technology, tools, means and mechanisms to enforce
> it effectively ? Or, we are back to situation where "ones with licenses"
> can offer the content only through "walled gardens" ?
>
> Personally, I think "porn" is as good and as bad as "alcohol". Make it
> available to people who do not have socially-acceptable amount of
> self-control & maturity - they can become a nuisance for the society. Do
> both of them have some therapeutic value when consumed in moderation --
> well, don't know, but the jury seems to be out on it. Unfortunately, the
> potential of nuisance that either of those create share an exponential
> relationship when mixed together. Anyhow, we digress.
>
>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 2:57 AM, ken <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Thaths (et al),
>>>
>>> Until this comment, I was looking forward to ignoring this topic but
>>> since you seem bent and determined, I am reluctantly addressing your
>>> demands.
>>>
>>> "A ban on Internet pornography in India could mean a hit of as much as
>>> 30-70% of data browsing revenues for India’s communications services
>>> providers, analysts and experts say.
>>>
>>> “Through our discussions with the various Internet Service Providers
>>> (ISPs), we have been able to estimate that as much as 30-70% of the total
>>> browsing in the country is related to pornography,” a senior executive at
>>> an Internet industry body said. “It’s very difficult to be any more
>>> specific than that since putting together a data packet specific inspection
>>> of what users are browsing could be seen as a breach of privacy,” added
>>> this person who asked not to be identified."
>>>
>>> http://www.livemint.com/Industry/VhuXq3jfADn2CrhK8nJ7pL/Oops-Indian-ISPs-telcos-could-lose-3070-of-data-revenue.html
>>>
>>> "...in the past, been considered taboo even among the upwardly mobile
>>> urban populace, 60% of Indian online traffic is pornography related. Recent
>>> stats released by an adult website PornHub show that 30% of the Indian
>>> visitors on their site are women, 6% higher than the global average of
>>> women visitors."
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.hindustantimes.com/sexandrelationships/why-indian-women-watch-porn/article1-1376205.aspx
>>>
>>> "India – the world’s second largest country by population, second
>>> largest by mobile users
>>> <http://dazeinfo.com/2014/11/19/growth-internet-telecom-users-india-q2-2014-disappoints/>,
>>> third largest by Internet population, and second largest by Facebook
>>> users
>>> <http://dazeinfo.com/2014/01/07/facebook-inc-fb-india-demographic-users-2014/>
>>> – has got a new feather in the cap. But, this time it may not be – or may
>>> be, for many – celebrated as a moment of proud. *India is rated at
>>> fifth-position in the list of countries having most prolific consumers of
>>> internet pornography*. Surprisingly, in a country where smartphone
>>> penetration (population) is mere 10%, *nearly 50% of porn content
>>> consumers in India use their smartphones to access online pornographic*
>>> ."
>>>
>>>
>>> http://dazeinfo.com/2014/11/22/online-porn-content-consumption-india-smartphone-study/
>>>
>>> As an aside, had you politely asked for this data, I can assure you that
>>> several people would have worked to fulfill your request. Conversely,
>>> demanding that someone do your research for you, as you have done more than
>>> once this in this discussion, is really the wrong way to interact with this
>>> group, based on my experience.
>>>
>>> So, now that you have this date, including URLs for you to do further
>>> reading, can we expect a change in your argument and possibly an apology?
>>>
>>> Dispassionately yours,
>>>
>>> Ken DiPietro
>>> Cumberland MD
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/08/2015 02:56 AM, Thaths wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:48 PM Banibrata Dutta <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:05 AM, Thaths <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 8:33 AM Kiritkumar Lathia <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> it would appropriate in this forum to observe that DoT has not acted in
>>>>>> an appropriate manner and passing the buck to ISP does not work - as the
>>>>>> title of this thread indicates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is NOT the argument Banibrata was making. He is insinuating that
>>>>> there is a dark nexus of people who are set against implementing the DoT
>>>>> orders because of financial interests. I want to ask him to substantiate
>>>>> this claim that there is money to be made from producing and distributing
>>>>> porn in India and that this is actually happening.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Insinuating" is a rather strong word, for a statement beginning with
>>>> "perhaps", don't you think ? "Nexus", again, a rather strong word.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So you are saying that you were not insinuating but speculating. Was
>>> your speculation idle? Or are there any facts behind the speculation? If
>>> so, what are they?
>>>
>>> I'll hold back on further responses till I see the data.
>>>
>>> Thaths
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ISP's don't need to make money directly from specific content industry
>>>> based on their value-add. If porn is one of the most popular content, it is
>>>> automatically a very important contributor to ISP's bread-n-butter revenue.
>>>> I don't think I need to explain why.
>>>>
>>>> As Suresh and Atanu have pointed out, India is a very price sensitive,
>>>>> and repressed ("what if my parents, significant other find out that I pay
>>>>> for Suicide Girls?") market. And giving out credit card numbers online is
>>>>> not a widespread practice.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not sure what "price sensitivity' has to do with this !  Content
>>>> (including porn) has a lot to do with discoverability. Content being
>>>> available out there, but not easy to discover, for target audience, is
>>>> dead-weight. Shampoo sachet pricing for 30s of titillation at Rs.5-6, made
>>>> discoverable by WAP-push channel on most phones. You and me, are not the
>>>> target customer for this channel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If I were ISP, I would continue to block all identified sites to avoid
>>>>>> legal problems , as it is totally impossible to ensure that there is no
>>>>>> child porn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. Let's also burn some libraries because some books in the
>>>>> library are unpalatable.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kirit is talking about the technical infeasibility (or extreme
>>>> difficulty) of filtering out child porn with 100% certainty. ISP is only
>>>> safeguarding it's interest by being extra cautious. Take Atanu's example of
>>>> free porn on tumblr. Today, you search for "free porn tumbler" you may get
>>>> 10 odd sites, tomorrow that may be 12 - of which 4 might be new, with 2
>>>> older ones having been shutdown. If such sites could mushroom at anytime,
>>>> why would any ISP take their chances with the tumblr.com domain. This
>>>> isn't similar to burning the library, but banning a publisher. There is
>>>> collateral damage, sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thaths
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is something this group can propose or lobby as "independent"
>>>>>> group ( assuming no one has financial interests in ISPs and/or pornography
>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015 11:11 PM, "Thaths" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 1:31 AM Banibrata Dutta <
>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At one of the 2011 (if I am not mistaken) Nasscom Product Conclave,
>>>>>>>> held in Bangalore, I remember Vishal Gondal had challenged the VP
>>>>>>>> Engineering (search engine / overall don't remember), as part of a panel
>>>>>>>> discussion, saying that the biggest share of search and of internet traffic
>>>>>>>> from India, at night, is porn (& games -- of course, the speaker being
>>>>>>>> Vishal).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If that is indeed true, and continues to be -- there may be more
>>>>>>>> than "implementability" of the order, responsible for not wishing to
>>>>>>>> implement. Porn, is one of the biggest internet-based industries in terms
>>>>>>>> of revenue, challenged only by ecommerce.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please cite your source. How much money is paid by internet porn
>>>>>>> consumers in India? Who is being paid? How much? And your sources for all
>>>>>>> these claims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thaths
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> India-gii mailing list
>>>>>>> India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
>>>>>>> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> regards,
>>>> Banibrata
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>>>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> Banibrata
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>



-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

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