Indian censorship of porn now stupider

All,

For more stats, please read BBC news article on this subject published
yesterday (I am not able to provide url). This is an interesting article.
Provides interesting info.

Let me just state again some points I had made:
- As Arun had pointed out, passing the buck to ISP is "stupid"
- In agreeing with Arun, I had tried to state that, from a technical point
of view, ISP can not control content of a website - only website owner can
do that
- ISP can (in theory but not in practice due high costs) "control" by
monitoring all upstream and downstream traffic and then block! Besides high
costs, think of the privacy issues.
- to think ISPs own porn websites to boost traffic is, for me personally,
beyond belief and conspiracy theories do not help.

What is needed (I have no idea of 2009 act) is robust laws and their
application/implementation at source - so prosecute paedophile website
owners (if site based in India) and people who use them. Become part of
global team and report paedophilia sites to countries where they are based.
This means create (I assume that it does not exist) a special cyber
paedophilia unit which will cooperate with other similar units via Interpol.



mistyped --

Please read:
*... versus what doesn't qualify (as porn that needs to be banned).*

as the following, instead:
*... versus what doesn't qualify (as material that need not be banned).*

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Banibrata Dutta <[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:

>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:01 AM, Ruchir T <[email protected]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
>
>> Well except these stats do not answer any of the questions he asked.
>>
>> 1. How much MONEY is paid by internet porn consumers in India ?
>> 2. Who is being paid ?
>> 3. How much ?
>>
>> Since the reply purports to answer these questions, but does not, here's
>> the most plausible answer.
>> The answer to all three questions is ZERO.
>>
>
> IMHO, a more pertinent question is, what qualifies as porn that must be
> banned, because it has "some" detrimental effect on society, versus what
> doesn't qualify (as porn that needs to be banned).
> What are the problems that get solved, if porn as per this specific
> definition is banned ? If the borderline porn, softcore continues to be
> available, are we certain that the problems won't be there ?
> As for the money trail, if you start counting the revenue from
> borderline/softcore variety, you'd see that it is "significant enough" for
> "the value-chain" to feel the pinch, if it were to be stopped completely.
>
> Hmm. So what does the money trail show ?
>>
>> The consumer is paying the local ISP for service.
>> The local ISP is paying other ISPs for content via content peering
>> relationships.
>> The remote ISPs are probably using this revenue to lower the cost of
>> hosting content provider sites.
>> The remote content producers can recuperate their low production/hosting
>> costs via a few subscriptions in source countries.
>>
>
> Since our (govt's) control and influence is limited to the first 2 legs of
> this value-chain, so might not serve too well for the purpose of this
> discussion, but "few subscriptions in source countries" couldn't explain
> the size of porn Industry in the source countries. It is so trivial to
> search for sources to this information, that I wouldn't want to list them
> here, but just for the sake of proof here's one (quite dated though, 12 yrs
> old, when internet penetration was abysmally low, compared to where we are
> today)
> http://www.forbes.com/2001/05/25/0524porn.html
>
> Find this world map interesting -
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_by_region
>> In several countries with higher internet penetration than India, is is
>> not legal to distribute porn.
>> The oft-stated connection between (internet) penetration and porn appears
>> dubious.
>>
>> My view is that asking for some content controls would be desirable for
>> healthy internet growth in the long term.
>>
>
> Would you care to elaborate ?
>
> What is "some content controls" ? Who is the best judge on what these
> controls should be ? How do we ensure that these controls are not a
> reflection of "conflicts of interest" for those making the decision ? How
> would be know that the "controls" do not get abused ? How would we measure
> if the controls have the proclaimed & purported effect (as told to the
> public at large) ?
>
> If the controls are like "limit spread / propagation of radical,
> right-wing extremist views / opinion", I think many people might agree,
> however, do we have the technology, tools, means and mechanisms to enforce
> it effectively ? Or, we are back to situation where "ones with licenses"
> can offer the content only through "walled gardens" ?
>
> Personally, I think "porn" is as good and as bad as "alcohol". Make it
> available to people who do not have socially-acceptable amount of
> self-control & maturity - they can become a nuisance for the society. Do
> both of them have some therapeutic value when consumed in moderation --
> well, don't know, but the jury seems to be out on it. Unfortunately, the
> potential of nuisance that either of those create share an exponential
> relationship when mixed together. Anyhow, we digress.
>
>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 2:57 AM, ken <[email protected]
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thaths (et al),
>>>
>>> Until this comment, I was looking forward to ignoring this topic but
>>> since you seem bent and determined, I am reluctantly addressing your
>>> demands.
>>>
>>> "A ban on Internet pornography in India could mean a hit of as much as
>>> 30-70% of data browsing revenues for India’s communications services
>>> providers, analysts and experts say.
>>>
>>> “Through our discussions with the various Internet Service Providers
>>> (ISPs), we have been able to estimate that as much as 30-70% of the total
>>> browsing in the country is related to pornography,” a senior executive at
>>> an Internet industry body said. “It’s very difficult to be any more
>>> specific than that since putting together a data packet specific inspection
>>> of what users are browsing could be seen as a breach of privacy,” added
>>> this person who asked not to be identified."
>>>
>>> http://www.livemint.com/Industry/VhuXq3jfADn2CrhK8nJ7pL/Oops-Indian-ISPs-telcos-could-lose-3070-of-data-revenue.html
>>>
>>> "...in the past, been considered taboo even among the upwardly mobile
>>> urban populace, 60% of Indian online traffic is pornography related. Recent
>>> stats released by an adult website PornHub show that 30% of the Indian
>>> visitors on their site are women, 6% higher than the global average of
>>> women visitors."
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.hindustantimes.com/sexandrelationships/why-indian-women-watch-porn/article1-1376205.aspx
>>>
>>> "India – the world’s second largest country by population, second
>>> largest by mobile users
>>> <http://dazeinfo.com/2014/11/19/growth-internet-telecom-users-india-q2-2014-disappoints/>,
>>> third largest by Internet population, and second largest by Facebook
>>> users
>>> <http://dazeinfo.com/2014/01/07/facebook-inc-fb-india-demographic-users-2014/>
>>> – has got a new feather in the cap. But, this time it may not be – or may
>>> be, for many – celebrated as a moment of proud. *India is rated at
>>> fifth-position in the list of countries having most prolific consumers of
>>> internet pornography*. Surprisingly, in a country where smartphone
>>> penetration (population) is mere 10%, *nearly 50% of porn content
>>> consumers in India use their smartphones to access online pornographic*
>>> ."
>>>
>>>
>>> http://dazeinfo.com/2014/11/22/online-porn-content-consumption-india-smartphone-study/
>>>
>>> As an aside, had you politely asked for this data, I can assure you that
>>> several people would have worked to fulfill your request. Conversely,
>>> demanding that someone do your research for you, as you have done more than
>>> once this in this discussion, is really the wrong way to interact with this
>>> group, based on my experience.
>>>
>>> So, now that you have this date, including URLs for you to do further
>>> reading, can we expect a change in your argument and possibly an apology?
>>>
>>> Dispassionately yours,
>>>
>>> Ken DiPietro
>>> Cumberland MD
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/08/2015 02:56 AM, Thaths wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:48 PM Banibrata Dutta <
>>> [email protected]
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:05 AM, Thaths <[email protected]
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 8:33 AM Kiritkumar Lathia <[email protected]
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> it would appropriate in this forum to observe that DoT has not acted in
>>>>>> an appropriate manner and passing the buck to ISP does not work - as the
>>>>>> title of this thread indicates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is NOT the argument Banibrata was making. He is insinuating that
>>>>> there is a dark nexus of people who are set against implementing the DoT
>>>>> orders because of financial interests. I want to ask him to substantiate
>>>>> this claim that there is money to be made from producing and distributing
>>>>> porn in India and that this is actually happening.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Insinuating" is a rather strong word, for a statement beginning with
>>>> "perhaps", don't you think ? "Nexus", again, a rather strong word.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So you are saying that you were not insinuating but speculating. Was
>>> your speculation idle? Or are there any facts behind the speculation? If
>>> so, what are they?
>>>
>>> I'll hold back on further responses till I see the data.
>>>
>>> Thaths
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ISP's don't need to make money directly from specific content industry
>>>> based on their value-add. If porn is one of the most popular content, it is
>>>> automatically a very important contributor to ISP's bread-n-butter revenue.
>>>> I don't think I need to explain why.
>>>>
>>>> As Suresh and Atanu have pointed out, India is a very price sensitive,
>>>>> and repressed ("what if my parents, significant other find out that I pay
>>>>> for Suicide Girls?") market. And giving out credit card numbers online is
>>>>> not a widespread practice.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not sure what "price sensitivity' has to do with this !  Content
>>>> (including porn) has a lot to do with discoverability. Content being
>>>> available out there, but not easy to discover, for target audience, is
>>>> dead-weight. Shampoo sachet pricing for 30s of titillation at Rs.5-6, made
>>>> discoverable by WAP-push channel on most phones. You and me, are not the
>>>> target customer for this channel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If I were ISP, I would continue to block all identified sites to avoid
>>>>>> legal problems , as it is totally impossible to ensure that there is no
>>>>>> child porn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. Let's also burn some libraries because some books in the
>>>>> library are unpalatable.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kirit is talking about the technical infeasibility (or extreme
>>>> difficulty) of filtering out child porn with 100% certainty. ISP is only
>>>> safeguarding it's interest by being extra cautious. Take Atanu's example of
>>>> free porn on tumblr. Today, you search for "free porn tumbler" you may get
>>>> 10 odd sites, tomorrow that may be 12 - of which 4 might be new, with 2
>>>> older ones having been shutdown. If such sites could mushroom at anytime,
>>>> why would any ISP take their chances with the tumblr.com domain. This
>>>> isn't similar to burning the library, but banning a publisher. There is
>>>> collateral damage, sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thaths
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is something this group can propose or lobby as "independent"
>>>>>> group ( assuming no one has financial interests in ISPs and/or pornography
>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015 11:11 PM, "Thaths" <[email protected]
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 1:31 AM Banibrata Dutta <
>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At one of the 2011 (if I am not mistaken) Nasscom Product Conclave,
>>>>>>>> held in Bangalore, I remember Vishal Gondal had challenged the VP
>>>>>>>> Engineering (search engine / overall don't remember), as part of a panel
>>>>>>>> discussion, saying that the biggest share of search and of internet traffic
>>>>>>>> from India, at night, is porn (& games -- of course, the speaker being
>>>>>>>> Vishal).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If that is indeed true, and continues to be -- there may be more
>>>>>>>> than "implementability" of the order, responsible for not wishing to
>>>>>>>> implement. Porn, is one of the biggest internet-based industries in terms
>>>>>>>> of revenue, challenged only by ecommerce.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please cite your source. How much money is paid by internet porn
>>>>>>> consumers in India? Who is being paid? How much? And your sources for all
>>>>>>> these claims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thaths
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> India-gii mailing list
>>>>>>> India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','India-gii-IAPFreCvJWP2/[email protected]');>
>>>>>>> https://lists.india-gii.org/mailman/listinfo/india-gii
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> regards,
>>>> Banibrata
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
>>>> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> Banibrata
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
> http://twitter.com/edgeliving
>



-- 
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
http://twitter.com/edgeliving

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