Let's use NVC
Alex King <[email protected]> Sat, 2 Apr 2016 22:27:46 +1300
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Hehe,
Ah I love Dunlug, good for a larf every now and again, eh?
And we have some great people signed up to the list and passionate about
life, technology, and what's growing in the garden and whether voip over
wifi is working today :)
Done with a bit of colour and robust discussion.
So I'm amused by this stuff, but I'm also saddened at times when people
leave because they don't feel they get their needs met. (Which has
happened in the past, and I think the reasons people leave actually
needs a lot of unpacking, they are not always what people say they are,
and often people leaving don't have a clear understanding of why they
are themselves.)
I like Marshall Rosenburg's method of communication (NVC), if we
followed that we could have discussions as robust as we like and not
offend each other. His communications guidelines are like an algorithm,
4 steps even simple folk like me can follow.
Part of it is the same as the old Unix tools philosophy, (like
tolerance) - accept/expect a wide range of inputs and always produce
regular, well formed, predictable output.
In human terms, when reading or listening, never hear blame or criticism
of yourself or anyone else. Listen for the unmet needs the person is
expressing instead.
When trying to make an argument yourself (express an opinion, ask for
something), then calling someone a name or questioning their abilities
or intelligence, or judging them (good or bad, explicitly or implicitly)
is actually not going to help you to persuade them of your point of
view. Better to actually argue the issues no? Play the ball, not the
man as they used to say.
And least you think that well formed, predictably framed Marshall
Rosenburg talk will be bland and meaningless, let me tell you that the
opposite is true. Descending into flame wars is the ultimate cop-out.
That is name calling instead of actually dealing with real issues that
exist.
So here's my request, have a look at NVC if you're interested
https://www.cnvc.org/learn/resources, I think we could discuss more
effectively.
And I'd be quite interested in discussing some of the actual issues,
e.g. for me:
* Is a move to picture-based interfaces meeting everyone's needs?
* Constant change in open source - staying with what you've learnt and
know often isn't an option, the industry takes away the familiar and
people must adopt to the new or go without (be excluded)
* The myth of choice - of course there is lots of choice in the open
source world, but most people receive their compilation of open
source technology through gatekeepers, e.g. Ubuntu. In reality
choice is limited by the options offered. (of course if you work in
technology and have time to spend on it, you have more options.
* There is a lot of "fashion" in the industry, and that is enabled by
the big companies and groupthink.
* Do developers and designers get rewarded and appreciated for their
work?
HTH,
Alex
On 02/04/16 19:17, Kathinka wrote:
> Sorry, Martin Kean, about unacknowledged quote, I assumed it was in
> the thread and lower down the post so would be obvious. My error.
> Profound - nay, grovelling - apologies. I didn't mean to cause you
> further trauma.
> By the way I'm hugely impressed that you yourself are certain about
> everyone else's understanding of the meaning of the term "level
> headed". There's a lot to be said for a good education.
> And I see now that your first response was also meant to provoke. So
> as long as we believe those explanations we can both be happy, even a
> little smug. Feels good eh.
>
> Kathinka
>
> On 2 April 2016 at 19:01, Martin Kean <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> I see you have used my private reply to you in a post, without credit:
>
>
> "You obviously have no idea about what level-headed designers
> actually do. Design is all about communication ahead of anything
> else..."
>
>
> I fear, Kathinka, that your understanding about some things, like
> level-headedness, is dissimilar to anyone else's.
> I see now that your first unthinking rant was only meant to provoke.
>
> Martin
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* DunLUG <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of Kathinka
> <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>
> *Sent:* Saturday, 2 April 2016 6:07 p.m.
> *To:* DunLUG
> *Subject:* Re: [dunlug] Reasonable deal for pre-ordering Ubuntu
> tablets
>
> I'm not hostile about the choices of others, I'm brassed off that
> the choice I used to have and the type of mind (words not
> pictures, typing not prodding and stroking) some of us have plus
> the disabilities Reece mentioned, is ignored, disrespected.
> Choose to work on whatever project they want - go ahead and good
> luck to you. But please don't whimper when other people express
> their own difficulties with something you or anyone else has
> created. They create and it's my duty to dance the happy dance,
> or remain silent about the way they have changed things so as to
> make my life more difficult, is that the rule now?
> Just as well it doesn't apply to musicians, cabinetmakers and
> choreographers. I guess they are insensitive thick skinned types,
> or perhaps they (a) learn from public's feedback or (b) shrug it
> off because they are confident that in their work they achieved
> what they intended, to the standard they are satisfied with, no
> matter what anyone else says - reaction dependent on whether they
> think the feedback is worth taking notice of or not.
>
> Compare and contrast: "You obviously have no idea about what
> level-headed designers actually do. Design is all about
> communication ahead of anything else...". Communication meaning
> "we 'communicate', you adapt to our 'language' i.e. our form of
> communication or disappear, t.i.n.a." Because if you don't it
> proves you "have no idea" and by implication have no right to
> express your opinions - right?
>
> Kathinka.
>
> On 2 April 2016 at 16:04, Chris Burgess <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> I joined this list because I've enjoyed using Linux for many
> years, and I believe in the community & ideals of free software.
>
> Being hostile about the choices of others, including their
> decisions to contribute to projects we aren't part of, or to
> use software we don't use, is unlikely to contribute to
> helping others discover free software. Shall we choose to not
> make that a part of DunLUG culture?
>
> One of the great things about free software is that if you
> don't like it, the cost of not using or contributing is also
> free. There's no need to be rude about, or swear at, projects
> that you don't favour or entire groups of people (flesh or straw).
>
> On 2 April 2016 at 09:46, Kathinka
> <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> By golly Reece, it's a much wider issue than mere
> preference! Thank you for pointing that out
>
> Where there has been a choice of how to display I have
> always chosen text, or icon + text.
>
> It was IMO a mistake to go one size fits all. Sure enough
> a phone can't be made for touch-typing, and one wouldn't
> want to carry a mouse around to use with the smart phone.
> Not however a good reason for downgrading tablets and PCs
> to match. Having one multipurpose "button" (e.g.
> touchpad) looks clean, streamlined therefore efficient.
> But to me it's like having only one sharp knife in a
> kitchen, the right size for some tasks, awkward and
> inefficient for others.
>
> Kathinka.
>
> On 2 April 2016 at 09:26, Reece Arnott
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> wrote:
>
> Short answer: yes.
> Slightly longer answer: (my impression is) Canonical
> started moving in this direction as they saw touch
> interfaces were going to be a thing but they still
> wanted to users to have a similar experience even if
> they didn't have a touch device. These tablets (and to
> a more limited extent the smart-phone I linked to) are
> really the first test of whether this sort of approach
> will actually work out.
>
> Similar sorts of experiments happened as the mouse
> became popular to transition from pure keyboard driven
> interfaces.
>
> What I think is really going to be interesting though
> is how the minorities are accounted for, eg. I have a
> friend who had his fingers burnt/melted in a fire and
> doesn't have a single whole one left. How is that
> going to be accommodated? Not to mention the obvious
> problem how the blind are to use such an interface.
>
> On 01/04/16 17:03, Kathinka wrote:
>> Is that Ubuntu the new (well, not really new now but
>> I've avoided it) GUI all pictures and scratch'n'sniff?
>> I'm very non-visual and find icons a pita, have to
>> mentally translate them into words every time, much
>> prefer menus etc in words so as to save time for
>> getting on with whatever I want to use the tool for.
>> Tough shit if this upsets designer types who want to
>> impose their post-verbal art-ahead-of-communication
>> passion on us without providing an easy switch on/off
>> to accommodate language people as well as pix-ies.
>>
>> On 30 March 2016 at 18:56, Reece Arnott
>> <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>> Pre-notice notice: I just realised an hour ago
>> that all the DunLUG messages for at least the
>> last month have ended up in Gmail's spam filter.
>> If you get this then you won't be affected but
>> feel free to pass the message on.
>>
>> Two 10.1 inch tablets that come with the mobile
>> version of Ubuntu are available for pre-order.
>> https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition/
>> See http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/features for
>> some details.
>>
>> There is also a 5 inch smartphone at the same
>> store that has a significantly higher resolution
>> camera for 200 euros:
>> <https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition-e5/>https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition-e5/
>>
>> All say they come with Ubuntu 15.04.
>>
>
> --
> "Believing men would act in their own interest was not cynicism, it turned out, but sheerest optimism; in reality men do not meet so high a standard."
> -- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (Chapter 84)
> http://hpmor.com/
>
> Reece Arnott
> Dunedin
> New Zealand
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DunLUG mailing list
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
> http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug
> DunLUG Wiki - http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DunLUG mailing list
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug
> DunLUG Wiki - http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/
> <http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DunLUG mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.ethernal.org/listinfo/dunlug
> DunLUG Wiki - http://dunlug.kallisti.net.nz/
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Hehe,<br>
<br>
Ah I love Dunlug, good for a larf every now and again, eh?<br>
<br>
And we have some great people signed up to the list and passionate
about life, technology, and what's growing in the garden and whether
voip over wifi is working today :)<br>
<br>
Done with a bit of colour and robust discussion.<br>
<br>
So I'm amused by this stuff, but I'm also saddened at times when
people leave because they don't feel they get their needs met.
(Which has happened in the past, and I think the reasons people
leave actually needs a lot of unpacking, they are not always what
people say they are, and often people leaving don't have a clear
understanding of why they are themselves.)<br>
<br>
I like Marshall Rosenburg's method of communication (NVC), if we
followed that we could have discussions as robust as we like and not
offend each other. His communications guidelines are like an
algorithm, 4 steps even simple folk like me can follow.<br>
<br>
Part of it is the same as the old Unix tools philosophy, (like
tolerance) - accept/expect a wide range of inputs and always produce
regular, well formed, predictable output.<br>
<br>
In human terms, when reading or listening, never hear blame or
criticism of yourself or anyone else. Listen for the unmet needs
the person is expressing instead.<br>
<br>
When trying to make an argument yourself (express an opinion, ask
for something), then calling someone a name or questioning their
abilities or intelligence, or judging them (good or bad, explicitly
or implicitly) is actually not going to help you to persuade them of
your point of view. Better to actually argue the issues no? Play
the ball, not the man as they used to say.<br>
<br>
And least you think that well formed, predictably framed Marshall
Rosenburg talk will be bland and meaningless, let me tell you that
the opposite is true. Descending into flame wars is the ultimate
cop-out. That is name calling instead of actually dealing with real
issues that exist. <br>
<br>
So here's my request, have a look at NVC if you're interested <a
href="https://www.cnvc.org/learn/resources"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.cnvc.org/learn/resources">https://www.cnvc.org/learn/resources</a></a>,
I think we could discuss more effectively.<br>
<br>
And I'd be quite interested in discussing some of the actual issues,
e.g. for me:<br>
<ul>
<li>Is a move to picture-based interfaces meeting everyone's
needs?</li>
<li>Constant change in open source - staying with what you've
learnt and know often isn't an option, the industry takes away
the familiar and people must adopt to the new or go without (be
excluded)<br>
</li>
<li>The myth of choice - of course there is lots of choice in the
open source world, but most people receive their compilation of
open source technology through gatekeepers, e.g. Ubuntu. In
reality choice is limited by the options offered. (of course if
you work in technology and have time to spend on it, you have
more options.<br>
</li>
<li>There is a lot of "fashion" in the industry, and that is
enabled by the big companies and groupthink.</li>
<li>Do developers and designers get rewarded and appreciated for
their work? <br>
</li>
</ul>
HTH,<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/04/16 19:17, Kathinka wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMWvXDbngpN_SxdEWkMfxToKYC8yZV8aQzQ-ffjuW4v8WcgP6g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Sorry,
Martin Kean, about unacknowledged quote, I assumed it was in
the thread and lower down the post so would be obvious. My
error. Profound - nay, grovelling - apologies. I didn't mean
to cause you further trauma.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">By
the way I'm hugely impressed that you yourself are certain
about everyone else's understanding of the meaning of the term
"level headed". There's a lot to be said for a good
education.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">And
I see now that your first response was also meant to provoke.
So as long as we believe those explanations we can both be
happy, even a little smug. Feels good eh.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif">Kathinka</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 2 April 2016 at 19:01, Martin Kean <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank">[email protected]</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#ffffff;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p>I see you have used my private reply to you in a
post, without credit:</p>
<span class="">
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:16px">"You
obviously have no idea about what level-headed
designers actually do. Design is all about
communication ahead of anything else..."</span><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</span>
<div>I fear, Kathinka, that your understanding about
some things, like level-headedness, is dissimilar to
anyone else's.</div>
<div>I see now that your first unthinking rant was only
meant to provoke.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Martin</div>
<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><span
class=""><b>From:</b> DunLUG <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[email protected]"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a></a>>
on behalf of Kathinka <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[email protected]"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a></a>><br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, 2 April 2016 6:07
p.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> DunLUG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [dunlug] Reasonable deal for
pre-ordering Ubuntu tablets</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm not
hostile about the choices of others, I'm
brassed off that the choice I used to have
and the type of mind (words not pictures,
typing not prodding and stroking) some of
us have plus the disabilities Reece
mentioned, is ignored, disrespected. Choose
to work on whatever project they want - go
ahead and good luck to you. But please
don't whimper when other people express
their own difficulties with something you or
anyone else has created. They create and
it's my duty to dance the happy dance, or
remain silent about the way they have
changed things so as to make my life more
difficult, is that the rule now? </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">Just as
well it doesn't apply to musicians,
cabinetmakers and choreographers. I guess
they are insensitive thick skinned types,
or perhaps they (a) learn from public's
feedback or (b) shrug it off because they
are confident that in their work they
achieved what they intended, to the standard
they are satisfied with, no matter what
anyone else says - reaction dependent on
whether they think the feedback is worth
taking notice of or not.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">Compare
and contrast: "You obviously have no idea
about what level-headed designers actually
do. Design is all about communication ahead
of anything else...". Communication meaning
"we 'communicate', you adapt to our
'language' i.e. our form of communication or
disappear, t.i.n.a." Because if you don't
it proves you "have no idea" and by
implication have no right to express your
opinions - right?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">Kathinka.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 2 April 2016 at
16:04, Chris Burgess <span dir="ltr">
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[email protected]"
target="_blank">[email protected]</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I joined this list because I've
enjoyed using Linux for many years,
and I believe in the community &
ideals of free software.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Being hostile about the choices of
others, including their decisions to
contribute to projects we aren't part
of, or to use software we don't use,
is unlikely to contribute to helping
others discover free software. Shall
we choose to not make that a part of
DunLUG culture?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One of the great things about free
software is that if you don't like it,
the cost of not using or contributing
is also free. There's no need to be
rude about, or swear at, projects that
you don't favour or entire groups of
people (flesh or straw).</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 2 April
2016 at 09:46, Kathinka <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[email protected]"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">By
golly Reece, it's a much
wider issue than mere
preference! Thank you for
pointing that out</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">Where
there has been a choice of
how to display I have always
chosen text, or icon + text.
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">It
was IMO a mistake to go one
size fits all. Sure enough
a phone can't be made for
touch-typing, and one
wouldn't want to carry a
mouse around to use with the
smart phone. Not however a
good reason for downgrading
tablets and PCs to match.
Having one multipurpose
"button" (e.g. touchpad)
looks clean, streamlined
therefore efficient. But to
me it's like having only one
sharp knife in a kitchen,
the right size for some
tasks, awkward and
inefficient for others.</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">Kathinka. </div>
</font></span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On 2 April 2016 at
09:26, Reece Arnott <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>Short answer:
yes.<br>
Slightly longer
answer: (my
impression is)
Canonical started
moving in this
direction as they
saw touch
interfaces were
going to be a
thing but they
still wanted to
users to have a
similar experience
even if they
didn't have a
touch device.
These tablets (and
to a more limited
extent the
smart-phone I
linked to) are
really the first
test of whether
this sort of
approach will
actually work out.<br>
<br>
Similar sorts of
experiments
happened as the
mouse became
popular to
transition from
pure keyboard
driven interfaces.<br>
<br>
What I think is
really going to be
interesting though
is how the
minorities are
accounted for, eg.
I have a friend
who had his
fingers
burnt/melted in a
fire and doesn't
have a single
whole one left.
How is that going
to be
accommodated? Not
to mention the
obvious problem
how the blind are
to use such an
interface.<span><br>
<br>
On 01/04/16
17:03, Kathinka
wrote:<br>
</span></div>
<span>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">Is that Ubuntu the new (well, not
really new now
but I've
avoided it)
GUI all
pictures and
scratch'n'sniff?</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm very non-visual and find icons a
pita, have to
mentally
translate them
into words
every time,
much prefer
menus etc in
words so as to
save time for
getting on
with whatever
I want to use
the tool for.
Tough shit if
this upsets
designer types
who want to
impose their
post-verbal
art-ahead-of-communication
passion on us
without
providing an
easy switch
on/off to
accommodate
language
people as well
as pix-ies.</div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
30 March 2016
at 18:56,
Reece Arnott <span
dir="ltr">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
Pre-notice
notice: I just
realised an
hour ago that
all the DunLUG
messages for
at least the
last month
have ended up
in Gmail's
spam filter.
If you get
this then you
won't be
affected but
feel free to
pass the
message on.<br>
<br>
Two 10.1 inch
tablets that
come with the
mobile version
of Ubuntu are
available for
pre-order.<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition/">https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition/</a></a><br>
See <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/features" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/features">http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/features</a></a> for some details.<br>
<br>
There is also
a 5 inch
smartphone at
the same store
that has a
significantly
higher
resolution
camera for 200
euros:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition-e5/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">
</a><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition-e5/" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition-e5/">https://store.bq.com/gl/ubuntu-edition-e5/</a></a><br>
<br>
All say they
come with
Ubuntu 15.04.<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><span>
<pre cols="72">--
"Believing men would act in their own interest was not cynicism, it turned out, but sheerest optimism; in reality men do not meet so high a standard."
-- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (Chapter 84)
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://hpmor.com/" target="_blank">http://hpmor.com/</a>
Reece Arnott
Dunedin
New Zealand
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