Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)

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Hoi,
Sources are what both the references of Wikipedia articles and Wikidata
items are based on. They have whatever license and are proof to the
validity of what is expressed.

When what we use as references and what we arguably could use as references
can be found in a search engine, we make it easier for editors to
contribute. We also make it easier to amend articles.. According to
Retraction Watch a retracted article remains a reference for a median of 3.=
68
years.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On Sun, 5 Jul 2026 at 19:46, The Cunctator <[email protected]> wrote:

> I think it would be fascinating to discover what would happen if we had a
> Foundation interested in enforcing Wikipedia's copyleft rather than
> subverting it.
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2026, 7:07=E2=80=AFAM Gerard Meijssen via Wikimedia-l <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> When we are to grow our exposure, there are many approaches possible but
>> the issue is first and foremost about exposure. Exposure means eyeballs.=
 I
>> have been thinking about this and given that I am more and more frustrat=
ed
>> with the search results of google, my suggestion is to provide a search
>> engine based on our references. For now I call it WikiFind.
>>
>> I blogged about it several times.. you can find more here.
>> <https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/search/label/WikiFind>
>> Thanks,
>>       Gerard Meijssen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 21:23, Christophe Henner via Wikimedia-l <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I love this discussion, thank you all for speaking up. :)
>>>
>>> One note on "the community can just do it," I do think it's the right
>>> direction, so please read the next couple of paragraphs as a friendly
>>> amendment (just to make sure everyone's on the same page) rather than a
>>> pushback.
>>>
>>> "The community can just do it," feels very appealing right now: because
>>> we are missing ownership and leadership, self-organizing is kinda the o=
nly
>>> option with that vacuum. It probably is the best tool we have to
>>> rebuild/respark the ownership we are missing.
>>>
>>> That being said, a couple of comments:
>>>
>>> 1. Community means staff too, to me. Many of the people the movement
>>> pays are also among its most committed contributors, so let us not run =
this
>>> as volunteers versus the Foundation/paid staff. I know it sometimes rea=
ds
>>> simplistic, but we're all in the same boat, or at least we should be.
>>>
>>> 2. At this scale the work will need people with dedicated time on it.
>>> Because the Foundation is not taking leadership doesn't mean it doesn't
>>> have a responsibility. The Foundation owns most of the resources in the
>>> movement, and if we, as a movement, are to change/evolve, we need those
>>> resources. It can't rely only on volunteers. However, I'm not saying we
>>> need X, Y or Z, just that we will need people with dedicated time at so=
me
>>> point.
>>>
>>> Brooke, to your comment on the Foundation being a service organisation,
>>> I would agree if the Foundation was being supportive. But it's neither
>>> leading the change nor being supportive on that topic, in my opinion. A=
nd
>>> don't anyone get me wrong, I do know how hard it is first hand to do ei=
ther
>>> (or both), but I also know it can happen. And I hope they'll take the f=
irst
>>> opportunity to join in the discussion.
>>>
>>> Speaking of opportunities, I've started a second thread with an
>>> invitation to meet next week. It's a bit of last minute notice, but I'd
>>> love to keep the momentum :)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Christophe
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 00:10, Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Nada, excellent framing.  It is entirely in our control to fix
>>>> outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make strides wit=
h
>>>> less-resource languages and communities.
>>>>
>>>> Christophe, thanks again for persisting in this thread (and planning a
>>>> range of activities around Wikimania!)  I see many people engaged with
>>>> these topics who don't want to engage in discussion about angst over
>>>> current problems, but are deeply enthusiastic about, and actively enga=
ged
>>>> in, building new things / working on new possibilities.
>>>>
>>>> Brooke writes:
>>>> > Wikimedia is a participatory system... We have to put in the work
>>>> ourselves.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely.  The civilized netizen's first duty is to be always
>>>> prepared to rewrite <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco> anythi=
ng
>>>> truly important from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> Galder writes:
>>>>
>>>>> One correction: I'm not a trustee!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But we surely trust you, including to make the world's best Txikipedia=
.
>>>>
>>>> We have many good ideas and talented people in the community.  We do
>>>> need persistent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because in
>>>> the last growth spurt we fragmented communication channels across hund=
reds
>>>> of pages, sites, lists, and apps.  Recombining many of those streams w=
ould
>>>> be good for coherence and continuity.
>>>>
>>>> But our wikis are better suited to experimenting, reverting, and
>>>> iterating than distilling large-scale consensus. Quick decisions by
>>>> ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) help polish the rou=
ghest
>>>> edges. Having spaces that push back against the iron law
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy> of oligarchy and
>>>> preserve freedom to experiment is essential, even when simultaneously
>>>> waiting for delayed consensus.
>>>>
>>>> Our strongest shared identity is as people committed to building
>>>> freely-licensed knowledge together, in every language, accessible to t=
he
>>>> entire world. More people care about this today than ever before. We s=
imply
>>>> have to make space for it again.
>>>>
>>>> =F0=9D=90=96=E2=99=A1, SJ
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected],
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guideline=
s
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]=
a.org/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]=
.org/message/UZBRT3CYMTTGU47QIT2NKACDWIBSGRW7/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]=
org/message/67XLUKVYNSO4HZG2OZ3KPN7YAI4TK2YU/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hoi,<div><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Sour=
ces are what both the references of Wikipedia articles and Wikidata items a=
re based on. They have whatever license and are proof to the validity of wh=
at is expressed.</span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:transpare=
nt"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">When=
 what we use as references and what we arguably could use as references can=
 be found in a search engine, we make it easier for editors to contribute. =
We also make it easier to amend articles.. According to Retraction Watch a =
retracted article remains a reference for a median of=C2=A0</span><span sty=
le=3D"background-color:transparent">3.68 years.</span></div><div><span styl=
e=3D"background-color:transparent">Thanks,</span></div><div><span style=3D"=
background-color:transparent">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0GerardM</span></di=
v></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, 5 Jul 2026 at 19:46, The Cunctator &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">I t=
hink it would be fascinating to discover what would happen if we had a Foun=
dation interested in enforcing Wikipedia&#39;s copyleft rather than subvert=
ing it.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Sat, Jul 4, 2026, 7:07=E2=80=AFAM Gerard Meijssen via Wikimedia-l=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">w=
[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hoi,<div>When we are to grow=
 our exposure, there are many approaches possible but the issue is first an=
d foremost about exposure. Exposure means eyeballs. I have been thinking ab=
out this and given that I am more and more frustrated with the search resul=
ts of google, my suggestion is to provide a search engine based on our refe=
rences. For now I call it WikiFind.</div><div><br></div><div>I blogged abou=
t it several times.. you can find more <a href=3D"https://ultimategerardm.b=
logspot.com/search/label/WikiFind" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">her=
e.</a></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gerard Meijssen</di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 21:23, Christophe Hen=
ner via Wikimedia-l &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">I love this discussion, thank =
you all for speaking up. :)</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">One note on &q=
uot;the community can just do it,&quot; I do think it&#39;s the right direc=
tion, so please read the next couple of paragraphs as a friendly amendment =
(just to make sure everyone&#39;s on the same page) rather than a pushback.=
</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">&quot;The community can just do it,&quot;=
 feels very appealing right now: because we are missing ownership and leade=
rship, self-organizing is kinda the only option with that vacuum. It probab=
ly is the best tool we have to rebuild/respark the ownership we are missing=
.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">That being said, a couple of comments:=
=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">1. Community means staff too, to me=
. Many of the people the movement pays are also among its most committed co=
ntributors, so let us not run this as volunteers versus the Foundation/paid=
 staff. I know it sometimes reads simplistic, but we&#39;re all in the same=
 boat, or at least we should be.=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">2. =
At this scale the work will need people with dedicated time on it. Because =
the Foundation is not taking leadership doesn&#39;t mean it doesn&#39;t hav=
e a responsibility. The Foundation owns most of the resources in the moveme=
nt, and if we, as a movement, are to change/evolve, we need those resources=
. It can&#39;t rely only on volunteers. However, I&#39;m not saying we need=
 X, Y or Z, just that we will need people with dedicated time at some point=
.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Brooke, to your comment on the Foundatio=
n being a service organisation, I would agree if the Foundation was being s=
upportive. But it&#39;s neither leading the change nor being supportive on =
that topic, in my opinion. And don&#39;t anyone get me wrong, I do know how=
 hard it is first hand to do either (or both), but I also know it can happe=
n. And I hope they&#39;ll take the first opportunity to join in the discuss=
ion.=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Speaking of opportunities, I&#3=
9;ve started a second thread with an invitation to meet next week. It&#39;s=
 a bit of last minute notice, but I&#39;d love to keep the momentum :)</p><=
p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></p></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature">--<br>Christophe</div></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 00:10=
, Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wikimedia-l-RusutVdil2iUmLTBS4g/[email protected]=
media.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]=
.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"background-color:transparent"=
>Dear Nada, excellent framing.=C2=A0 It is entirely in our control to fix o=
utreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make strides with less=
-resource languages and communities.=C2=A0 <br><br>Christophe, thanks again=
 for persisting in this thread (and planning a range of activities around W=
ikimania!)=C2=A0 I see many people engaged with these topics who=C2=A0</spa=
n><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">don&#39;t want to engage in =
discussion about angst over current problems, but are deeply enthusiastic a=
bout, and actively engaged in, building new things / working on new possibi=
lities.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"background-color:transp=
arent"><br>Brooke writes:=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></span><span style=3D"background-c=
olor:transparent">&gt; Wikimedia is a participatory system...=C2=A0</span><=
span style=3D"background-color:transparent">We </span>have to<span style=3D=
"background-color:transparent"> put in the work ourselves.</span></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Absolutely.=C2=A0 The civilized net=
izen&#39;s first duty is <a href=3D"https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Umberto_E=
co" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">to be always prepared to rewrite</=
a>=C2=A0anything truly important from scratch.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><div><br></di=
v><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Galder writes:</span></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div>




<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
One correction: I&#39;m not a trustee!</div>
<div id=3D"m_3194080513931352002m_3949154746150391723m_-2211385429125344287=
m_-5797757815149628226m_6520172203024871229m_8356870054322612186m_-66929412=
70673887459m_4218606558173225528m_-6615731068182817330appendonsend"></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div dir=3D"ltr">But we surely trust you, includi=
ng to make the world&#39;s best Txikipedia.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"></div>We have many good ideas and talented people in the communi=
ty.=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"background-color:transparent">We do need pers=
istent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because </span>in<span sty=
le=3D"background-color:transparent"> the last growth spurt we fragmented co=
mmunication channels across hundreds of pages, sites, lists, and apps.=C2=
=A0 Recombining many of those streams would be good for coherence and conti=
nuity.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>But our wikis are better suited to =
experimenting, reverting, and iterating than distilling large-scale consens=
us. Quick decisions by ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) h=
elp polish the roughest edges. Having spaces that push back against the <a =
href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">iron law</a> of oligarchy and preserve freedom to ex=
periment is essential, even when simultaneously waiting for delayed consens=
us.<br><br>Our strongest shared identity is as people committed to building=
 freely-licensed knowledge together, in every language, accessible to the e=
ntire world. More people care about this today than ever before. We simply =
have to make space for it again.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">=F0=9D=90=96=E2=99=A1,=C2=A0SJ</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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