Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)
The Cunctator via Wikimedia-l <[email protected]> Sun, 5 Jul 2026 13:46:18 -0400
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CACOqVVtHiDOMYXOOV41r-B4O6B7Px8b_Y_O9hR-JtPtXOvF2MQ@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============0777476905917944507== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d085020655e0bc24" --000000000000d085020655e0bc24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think it would be fascinating to discover what would happen if we had a Foundation interested in enforcing Wikipedia's copyleft rather than subverting it. On Sat, Jul 4, 2026, 7:07=E2=80=AFAM Gerard Meijssen via Wikimedia-l < [email protected]> wrote: > Hoi, > When we are to grow our exposure, there are many approaches possible but > the issue is first and foremost about exposure. Exposure means eyeballs. = I > have been thinking about this and given that I am more and more frustrate= d > with the search results of google, my suggestion is to provide a search > engine based on our references. For now I call it WikiFind. > > I blogged about it several times.. you can find more here. > <https://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/search/label/WikiFind> > Thanks, > Gerard Meijssen > > > > On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 21:23, Christophe Henner via Wikimedia-l < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> I love this discussion, thank you all for speaking up. :) >> >> One note on "the community can just do it," I do think it's the right >> direction, so please read the next couple of paragraphs as a friendly >> amendment (just to make sure everyone's on the same page) rather than a >> pushback. >> >> "The community can just do it," feels very appealing right now: because >> we are missing ownership and leadership, self-organizing is kinda the on= ly >> option with that vacuum. It probably is the best tool we have to >> rebuild/respark the ownership we are missing. >> >> That being said, a couple of comments: >> >> 1. Community means staff too, to me. Many of the people the movement pay= s >> are also among its most committed contributors, so let us not run this a= s >> volunteers versus the Foundation/paid staff. I know it sometimes reads >> simplistic, but we're all in the same boat, or at least we should be. >> >> 2. At this scale the work will need people with dedicated time on it. >> Because the Foundation is not taking leadership doesn't mean it doesn't >> have a responsibility. The Foundation owns most of the resources in the >> movement, and if we, as a movement, are to change/evolve, we need those >> resources. It can't rely only on volunteers. However, I'm not saying we >> need X, Y or Z, just that we will need people with dedicated time at som= e >> point. >> >> Brooke, to your comment on the Foundation being a service organisation, = I >> would agree if the Foundation was being supportive. But it's neither >> leading the change nor being supportive on that topic, in my opinion. An= d >> don't anyone get me wrong, I do know how hard it is first hand to do eit= her >> (or both), but I also know it can happen. And I hope they'll take the fi= rst >> opportunity to join in the discussion. >> >> Speaking of opportunities, I've started a second thread with an >> invitation to meet next week. It's a bit of last minute notice, but I'd >> love to keep the momentum :) >> >> >> -- >> Christophe >> >> >> On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 00:10, Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Dear Nada, excellent framing. It is entirely in our control to fix >>> outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make strides with >>> less-resource languages and communities. >>> >>> Christophe, thanks again for persisting in this thread (and planning a >>> range of activities around Wikimania!) I see many people engaged with >>> these topics who don't want to engage in discussion about angst over >>> current problems, but are deeply enthusiastic about, and actively engag= ed >>> in, building new things / working on new possibilities. >>> >>> Brooke writes: >>> > Wikimedia is a participatory system... We have to put in the work >>> ourselves. >>> >>> Absolutely. The civilized netizen's first duty is to be always >>> prepared to rewrite <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco> anythin= g >>> truly important from scratch. >>> >>> Galder writes: >>> >>>> One correction: I'm not a trustee! >>>> >>> >>> But we surely trust you, including to make the world's best Txikipedia. >>> >>> We have many good ideas and talented people in the community. We do >>> need persistent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because in >>> the last growth spurt we fragmented communication channels across hundr= eds >>> of pages, sites, lists, and apps. Recombining many of those streams wo= uld >>> be good for coherence and continuity. >>> >>> But our wikis are better suited to experimenting, reverting, and >>> iterating than distilling large-scale consensus. Quick decisions by >>> ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) help polish the roug= hest >>> edges. Having spaces that push back against the iron law >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy> of oligarchy and >>> preserve freedom to experiment is essential, even when simultaneously >>> waiting for delayed consensus. >>> >>> Our strongest shared identity is as people committed to building >>> freely-licensed knowledge together, in every language, accessible to th= e >>> entire world. More people care about this today than ever before. We si= mply >>> have to make space for it again. >>> >>> =F0=9D=90=96=E2=99=A1, SJ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= .org/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= org/message/UZBRT3CYMTTGU47QIT2NKACDWIBSGRW7/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= rg/message/67XLUKVYNSO4HZG2OZ3KPN7YAI4TK2YU/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --000000000000d085020655e0bc24 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">I think it would be fascinating to discover what would ha= ppen if we had a Foundation interested in enforcing Wikipedia's copylef= t rather than subverting it.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote= _container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 4, 2026, 7:07= =E2=80=AFAM Gerard Meijssen via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:wikimedia= [email protected]">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br><= /div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le= ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hoi,<div>When we are t= o grow our exposure, there are many approaches possible but the issue is fi= rst and foremost about exposure. Exposure means eyeballs. I have been think= ing about this and given that I am more and more frustrated with the search= results of google, my suggestion is to provide a search engine based on ou= r references. For now I call it WikiFind.</div><div><br></div><div>I blogge= d about it several times.. you can find more <a href=3D"https://ultimateger= ardm.blogspot.com/search/label/WikiFind" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre= r">here.</a></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gerard Meijss= en</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 at 21:23, Christop= he Henner via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= .org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]<= /a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0= px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><= div dir=3D"ltr"><div><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">I love this discussion, = thank you all for speaking up. :)</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">One note= on "the community can just do it," I do think it's the right= direction, so please read the next couple of paragraphs as a friendly amen= dment (just to make sure everyone's on the same page) rather than a pus= hback.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">"The community can just do it,= " feels very appealing right now: because we are missing ownership and= leadership, self-organizing is kinda the only option with that vacuum. It = probably is the best tool we have to rebuild/respark the ownership we are m= issing.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">That being said, a couple of comme= nts:=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">1. Community means staff too, t= o me. Many of the people the movement pays are also among its most committe= d contributors, so let us not run this as volunteers versus the Foundation/= paid staff. I know it sometimes reads simplistic, but we're all in the = same boat, or at least we should be.=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"= >2. At this scale the work will need people with dedicated time on it. Beca= use the Foundation is not taking leadership doesn't mean it doesn't= have a responsibility. The Foundation owns most of the resources in the mo= vement, and if we, as a movement, are to change/evolve, we need those resou= rces. It can't rely only on volunteers. However, I'm not saying we = need X, Y or Z, just that we will need people with dedicated time at some p= oint.</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Brooke, to your comment on the Found= ation being a service organisation, I would agree if the Foundation was bei= ng supportive. But it's neither leading the change nor being supportive= on that topic, in my opinion. And don't anyone get me wrong, I do know= how hard it is first hand to do either (or both), but I also know it can h= appen. And I hope they'll take the first opportunity to join in the dis= cussion.=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Speaking of opportunities, = I've started a second thread with an invitation to meet next week. It&#= 39;s a bit of last minute notice, but I'd love to keep the momentum :)<= /p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></p></div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_signature">--<br>Christophe</div></div><br></div><br><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 3 Jul 2026 a= t 00:10, Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:wikimedia-l@lis= ts.wikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]= kimedia.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l= tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"background-color:trans= parent">Dear Nada, excellent framing.=C2=A0 It is entirely in our control t= o fix outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make strides wi= th less-resource languages and communities.=C2=A0 <br><br>Christophe, thank= s again for persisting in this thread (and planning a range of activities a= round Wikimania!)=C2=A0 I see many people engaged with these topics who=C2= =A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">don't want to en= gage in discussion about angst over current problems, but are deeply enthus= iastic about, and actively engaged in, building new things / working on new= possibilities.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"background-colo= r:transparent"><br>Brooke writes:=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></span><span style=3D"back= ground-color:transparent">> Wikimedia is a participatory system...=C2=A0= </span><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">We </span>have to<span = style=3D"background-color:transparent"> put in the work ourselves.</span></= div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Absolutely.=C2=A0 The civil= ized netizen's first duty is <a href=3D"https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/U= mberto_Eco" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">to be always prepared to r= ewrite</a>=C2=A0anything truly important from scratch.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><div>= <br></div><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Galder writes:</span= ></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex"><div> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> One correction: I'm not a trustee!</div> <div id=3D"m_3949154746150391723m_-2211385429125344287m_-579775781514962822= 6m_6520172203024871229m_8356870054322612186m_-6692941270673887459m_42186065= 58173225528m_-6615731068182817330appendonsend"></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><= /div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div dir=3D"ltr">But we surely trust you, includi= ng to make the world's best Txikipedia.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm= ail_quote"></div>We have many good ideas and talented people in the communi= ty.=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"background-color:transparent">We do need pers= istent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because </span>in<span sty= le=3D"background-color:transparent"> the last growth spurt we fragmented co= mmunication channels across hundreds of pages, sites, lists, and apps.=C2= =A0 Recombining many of those streams would be good for coherence and conti= nuity.</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>But our wikis are better suited to = experimenting, reverting, and iterating than distilling large-scale consens= us. Quick decisions by ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) h= elp polish the roughest edges. Having spaces that push back against the <a = href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy" target=3D"_bla= nk" rel=3D"noreferrer">iron law</a> of oligarchy and preserve freedom to ex= periment is essential, even when simultaneously waiting for delayed consens= us.<br><br>Our strongest shared identity is as people committed to building= freely-licensed knowledge together, in every language, accessible to the e= ntire world. More people care about this today than ever before. We simply = have to make space for it again.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir= =3D"ltr">=F0=9D=90=96=E2=99=A1,=C2=A0SJ</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></d= iv> </div> </div> </div> </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a= >, guidelines at: <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/= Guidelines" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wi= kimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.w= ikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bla= nk">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/" r= el=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/= hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOM= P54CXTRGWLNB3/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">wikimedia-l-leave@lists.= wikimedia.org</a></blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a= >, guidelines at: <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/= Guidelines" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wi= kimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.w= ikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bla= nk">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/UZBRT3CYMTTGU47QIT2NKACDWIBSGRW7/" r= el=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/= hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/UZBRT3CYMTTGU47QIT2= NKACDWIBSGRW7/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">wikimedia-l-leave@lists.= wikimedia.org</a></blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">[email protected]</a= >, guidelines at: <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/= Guidelines" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wi= kimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.w= ikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_bla= nk">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/67XLUKVYNSO4HZG2OZ3KPN7YAI4TK2YU/" r= el=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/= hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/67XLUKVYNSO4HZG2OZ3= KPN7YAI4TK2YU/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">wikimedia-l-leave@lists.= wikimedia.org</a></blockquote></div> --000000000000d085020655e0bc24-- --===============0777476905917944507== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/2JL2IJGTYBMJFVTJNVF2MBUITDUUVZHH/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --===============0777476905917944507==--