Re: Discussion about a way forward Was: Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)
Ilario valdelli via Wikimedia-l <[email protected]> Sun, 5 Jul 2026 18:01:28 +0200
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============4977747807610475567== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4nff8lB0rUiy8wlipZfTj60K" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4nff8lB0rUiy8wlipZfTj60K Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I can't join on Tuesday, so I'm leaving here what would have been my three minutes. Speaking in personal capacity. First, a request for whoever works on revenue. The essay proposes expanding Enterprise into verification services that AI companies would pay for. Enterprise has existed since 2021. Revenue in FY 2023-24 was 3.4M USD, about 1.8% of Foundation revenue; the figure comes from Christophe's own footnotes. Five years, in the middle of the largest spending boom on data this industry has ever seen, and the buyer has not shown up. I am not saying the thesis is wrong. I am saying the numbers we already have contradict it, and understanding why should be the first task of that group, before any plan to scale. Is the product underinvested? Is the price of something that is also legally free bound to stay near zero? Is the demand somewhere we have not looked? I don't know, and I would distrust anyone who answers too quickly. The second point matters more to me. New editor signups are down 36% since 2016, again from Christophe's data, and the community shrinks every year. Every scenario discussed in these six months, including the most optimistic ones, dies without editors. Yet the discussion has been mostly about money, and a movement that mostly talks about money will not convince anyone to give it their evenings. Personally, I believe the case for contributing is stronger today than it was in 2006. More and more of what people read is produced by systems that can be tuned by their owners and inspected by no one. Ours remains the one large project that anyone can audit, question, and repair. Whether that argument can actually bring people in is exactly what a contributor track should exist to find out. Kind regards Ilario On 03/07/2026 21:22, Christophe Henner via Wikimedia-l wrote: > > I'm forking my original thread > > I love the discussion and energy so much that I'd like to offer a > "meetup" on the topic. I've created an event for next week, and to > avoid endless discussion on the call name: This is not a > meeting:https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting>on > Tuesday 19:00 UTC. > > I tried to strike a balance between structured enough to manage > expectations but open enough too. I've added a stub of an agenda, with > a goal to create a baseline on things there's agreement on, plus > ideas, suggestions, etc. to move forward. > > I would love to open the floor with 2 or 3 three-minute lightning > talks for people to present/share a view on the situation, so we can > start the discussion with a few statements. Anyone interested, just > send me a message or leave one on the Event talk page, I'll reach out. > > And then break into groups for people to talk about specific topics > (I've made proposals on the page, but they would benefit from other > people's insights to improve them). Then re-group for discussion, no > more than 5 minutes. And I've added a 42-minute overflow, so that if > people want to linger around, they can. But if people can't do more > than an hour of meeting, they can very easily leave the discussion. > > And that leaves us a few days to prepare and keep talking in writing. :) > > Now that the discussion has started, I'd like to quote a great > philosopher about something we'd like to avoid: "For a moment, nothing > happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen." > > Have all a great day :) > > -- > Christophe > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2026 at 12:10 AM Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Nada, excellent framing. It is entirely in our control to > fix outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make > strides with less-resource languages and communities. > > Christophe, thanks again for persisting in this thread (and > planning a range of activities around Wikimania!) I see many > people engaged with these topics who don't want to engage in > discussion about angst over current problems, but are deeply > enthusiastic about, and actively engaged in, building new things / > working on new possibilities. > > Brooke writes: > > Wikimedia is a participatory system... We have toput in the work > ourselves. > > Absolutely. The civilized netizen's first duty is to be always > prepared to rewrite > <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco> anything truly > important from scratch. > > Galder writes: > > One correction: I'm not a trustee! > > > But we surely trust you, including to make the world's best > Txikipedia. > > We have many good ideas and talented people in the community. We > do need persistent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part > because inthe last growth spurt we fragmented communication > channels across hundreds of pages, sites, lists, and apps. > Recombining many of those streams would be good for coherence and > continuity. > > But our wikis are better suited to experimenting, reverting, and > iterating than distilling large-scale consensus. Quick decisions > by ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) help polish > the roughest edges. Having spaces that push back against the iron > law <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy> of > oligarchy and preserve freedom to experiment is essential, even > when simultaneously waiting for delayed consensus. > > Our strongest shared identity is as people committed to building > freely-licensed knowledge together, in every language, accessible > to the entire world. More people care about this today than ever > before. We simply have to make space for it again. > > 𝐖♡, SJ > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], > guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list [email protected], guidelines at:https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines andhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives athttps://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/UH4I4Z2L6NQPKMDSARJF6242CVYUKA7Y/ > To unsubscribe send an email towikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org -- Ilario Valdelli Skype: valdelli Tel: +41764821371 --------------4nff8lB0rUiy8wlipZfTj60K Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <!DOCTYPE html> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> </head> <body> <p>Hi all,<br> <br> I can't join on Tuesday, so I'm leaving here what would have been my three minutes. Speaking in personal capacity.<br> <br> First, a request for whoever works on revenue. The essay proposes expanding Enterprise into verification services that AI companies would pay for. Enterprise has existed since 2021. Revenue in FY 2023-24 was 3.4M USD, about 1.8% of Foundation revenue; the figure comes from Christophe's own footnotes. Five years, in the middle of the largest spending boom on data this industry has ever seen, and the buyer has not shown up. I am not saying the thesis is wrong. I am saying the numbers we already have contradict it, and understanding why should be the first task of that group, before any plan to scale. Is the product underinvested? Is the price of something that is also legally free bound to stay near zero? Is the demand somewhere we have not looked? I don't know, and I would distrust anyone who answers too quickly.<br> <br> The second point matters more to me. New editor signups are down 36% since 2016, again from Christophe's data, and the community shrinks every year. Every scenario discussed in these six months, including the most optimistic ones, dies without editors. Yet the discussion has been mostly about money, and a movement that mostly talks about money will not convince anyone to give it their evenings.<br> <br> Personally, I believe the case for contributing is stronger today than it was in 2006. More and more of what people read is produced by systems that can be tuned by their owners and inspected by no one. Ours remains the one large project that anyone can audit, question, and repair. Whether that argument can actually bring people in is exactly what a contributor track should exist to find out.<br> <br> Kind regards<br> <br> Ilario</p> <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/07/2026 21:22, Christophe Henner via Wikimedia-l wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAFaJbjdVNJRa_LYWLGG9OtJKiZOQqmNiLFJywY038TexuscgCw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org"> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> <div dir="ltr"> <div dir="ltr"> <div> <div style="font-size:inherit"> <p class="gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I'm forking my original thread</p> <p class="gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I love the discussion and energy so much that I'd like to offer a "meetup" on the topic. I've created an event for next week, and to avoid endless discussion on the call name: This is not a meeting:<span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="gmail-underline gmail-underline-offset-2 gmail-decoration-1 gmail-decoration-current/40 gmail-hover:decoration-current gmail-focus:decoration-current moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting" moz-do-not-send="true">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Event:This_is_not_a_meeting</a><span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span>on Tuesday 19:00 UTC.</p> <p class="gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I tried to strike a balance between structured enough to manage expectations but open enough too. I've added a stub of an agenda, with a goal to create a baseline on things there's agreement on, plus ideas, suggestions, etc. to move forward.</p> <p class="gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I would love to open the floor with 2 or 3 three-minute lightning talks for people to present/share a view on the situation, so we can start the discussion with a few statements. Anyone interested, just send me a message or leave one on the Event talk page, I'll reach out. </p> <p class="gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">And then break into groups for people to talk about specific topics (I've made proposals on the page, but they would benefit from other people's insights to improve them). Then re-group for discussion, no more than 5 minutes. And I've added a 42-minute overflow, so that if people want to linger around, they can. But if people can't do more than an hour of meeting, they can very easily leave the discussion.</p> <p class="gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">And that leaves us a few days to prepare and keep talking in writing. :)</p> <p class="gmail-font-claude-response-body gmail-break-words gmail-whitespace-normal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Now that the discussion has started, I'd like to quote a great philosopher about something we'd like to avoid: "For a moment, nothing happened. Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen."</p> </div> </div> <div>Have all a great day :)</div> <div><br clear="all"> <div> <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">--<br> Christophe</div> </div> </div> </div> <div><br> <div class="gmail_quote"> <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 3, 2026 at 12:10 AM Samuel Klein via Wikimedia-l <<a href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir="ltr"> <div dir="ltr"> <div dir="ltr"> <div dir="ltr"> <div dir="ltr"> <div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:transparent">Dear Nada, excellent framing. It is entirely in our control to fix outreach, build welcoming and forgiving environments, make strides with less-resource languages and communities. <br> <br> Christophe, thanks again for persisting in this thread (and planning a range of activities around Wikimania!) I see many people engaged with these topics who </span><span style="background-color:transparent">don't want to engage in discussion about angst over current problems, but are deeply enthusiastic about, and actively engaged in, building new things / working on new possibilities.</span></div> <div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color:transparent"><br> Brooke writes: <br> </span><span style="background-color:transparent">> Wikimedia is a participatory system... </span><span style="background-color:transparent">We </span>have to<span style="background-color:transparent"> put in the work ourselves.</span></div> <div dir="ltr"><br> </div> <div dir="ltr">Absolutely. The civilized netizen's first duty is <a href="https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">to be always prepared to rewrite</a> anything truly important from scratch. <br> <div><br> </div> <span style="background-color:transparent">Galder writes:</span></div> <div class="gmail_quote"> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> One correction: I'm not a trustee!</div> </div> </div> </blockquote> </div> <div dir="ltr"><br> <div dir="ltr">But we surely trust you, including to make the world's best Txikipedia. </div> <br> We have many good ideas and talented people in the community. <span style="background-color:transparent">We do need persistent spaces to discuss and make plans, in part because </span>in<span style="background-color:transparent"> the last growth spurt we fragmented communication channels across hundreds of pages, sites, lists, and apps. Recombining many of those streams would be good for coherence and continuity.</span></div> <div dir="ltr"><br> But our wikis are better suited to experimenting, reverting, and iterating than distilling large-scale consensus. Quick decisions by ~sortition (or by the first few people to turn up) help polish the roughest edges. Having spaces that push back against the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">iron law</a> of oligarchy and preserve freedom to experiment is essential, even when simultaneously waiting for delayed consensus.<br> <br> Our strongest shared identity is as people committed to building freely-licensed knowledge together, in every language, accessible to the entire world. More people care about this today than ever before. We simply have to make space for it again.</div> <div dir="ltr"><br> </div> <div dir="ltr">𝐖♡, SJ</div> <div dir="ltr"><br> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines</a> and <a href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/RJV4EYFT53SYRNXZPOMP54CXTRGWLNB3/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></blockquote> </div> </div> </div> <br> <fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset> <pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines</a> and <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l</a> Public archives at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/UH4I4Z2L6NQPKMDSARJF6242CVYUKA7Y/">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/UH4I4Z2L6NQPKMDSARJF6242CVYUKA7Y/</a> To unsubscribe send an email to <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></pre> </blockquote> <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- Ilario Valdelli Skype: valdelli Tel: +41764821371</pre> </body> </html> --------------4nff8lB0rUiy8wlipZfTj60K-- --===============4977747807610475567== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/4CQE6SXPQW2TBAEVOH3QFPE5CGJC5GYA/ To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --===============4977747807610475567==--