Re: Google Zero is coming [was Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)]

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Hoi,
You indicate that over a billion people use ChatGPT... the closest analogy
is the Boxer wars where the UK fought to have a market for opium in China.
It was to keep people depending on drugs. AI from a strategic point of view
creates a dependency on the USA. The global narrative is that as a partner,
the USA can no longer be depended on. It is why Europe and China are moving
away from products that are keyed to the US national interest including
products like SWIFT, personal computing, computing.

When some US based megalomanic billionaires outcompete each other to
develop AI, they are a substantial producer of worldwide CO2, this while we
are already past tipping points we should not cross when we want to have a
livable earth. When it is considered a fact that a billion people use
ChatGPT, I wonder if that is because a lot of the hardware and software is
infused with AI.

AI production is not only producing CO2 it is actively using up water where
there is not enough to go around in the quantity desired by AI factories.
There is a reason why people do not want AI factories in their backyard and
there is a reason why these factories are announced when permissions have
already been granted.

Google used to use green energy for its services, it no longer can.. the
same is true for all AI companies.

AI is used in a strategic fashion and it cannot be assumed to be/remain
globally available. We are a global organisation and our public is global.
AI, in its current iteration, is something we cannot afford. When we
provide a search engine with all our references, with inclusion of like
minded organisations, when videos are included and when we enable
annotation to all we offer, we do not offer a substitute for AI but we
offer something substantially more inclusive than just Wikipedia.

Also, when the WMF wants to be green, it can source its energy from a
supplier that provides green energy. When that is not possible, it can
build an equivalent new capacity and provide it on the grid. Then again, in
this argument we consider AI not WMF.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On Fri, 10 Jul 2026 at 20:05, Steven Walling <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 10:36=E2=80=AFAM Gerard Meijssen via Wikimedia-l =
<
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> How does that raise more eyeballs to our data, to our projects. Why woul=
d
>> we build this to serve companies that raise CO2 with 35%?
>>
>> Why support AI at all when it is killing our future!
>> Thanks,
>>       GerardM
>>
>
> Gerard,
>
> ChatGPT alone has over a billion monthly active users and these platforms
> are growing rapidly (note the survey data I linked to previously in
> thread).
>
> Everything Wikimedia does has a CO2 emissions cost. We are not carbon
> neutral today as far as I am aware, though I would bet many of us would
> agree that is a goal worth pursuing.
>
> Steven
>
>
>> On Fri, 10 Jul 2026 at 19:30, Steven Walling via Wikimedia-l <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 9:52=E2=80=AFAM Erik Moeller via Wikimedia-l <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Yah a search engine that actually gives real references that support=
s
>>>> the statements in question would be amazing.
>>>>
>>>> Almost like .. a Knowledge Engine. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is the WMF building an MCP server to connect Wikipedia and Wikidata
>>> directly to Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT? This is a more lightweight,
>>> backdoor way to leverage the audience of those platforms but present
>>> structured outputs to AI chats for users based on Wikimedia knowledge. =
If
>>> we did so, we could present citations within the returned responses to
>>> users, and those platforms make it transparent to the user when they ar=
e
>>> calling a particular tool.
>>>
>>> Steven Walling
>>>
>>> Sadly, the only realistic path I see there would be through
>>>> acquisition, and even if that was financially feasible, you'd begin by
>>>> inheriting a lot of corporate practices that aren't really consistent
>>>> with Wikimedia values.
>>>>
>>>> But perhaps there is a middle ground where Wikimedia seeks to define
>>>> more clearly the terms of engagement that it wants with search engines
>>>> (clear attribution, clear and correct references, calls-to-edit,
>>>> etc.), and then finds and recognizes search partners who implement
>>>> those. To Luis' point, that need not be done by WMF.
>>>>
>>>> Warmly,
>>>>
>>>> Erik
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected],
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guideline=
s
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
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a.org/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OXOS/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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.org/message/IUDAKJRN5EQT5CCWEEYQXKDSVXCDBXR6/
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>>
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org/message/N7LFQLLPT6BSANTYFYPXHHQ6XYQX76GA/
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>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hoi,<div>You indicate that over a billion people use ChatG=
PT... the closest analogy is the Boxer wars where the UK fought to have a m=
arket for opium in China. It was to keep people depending on drugs. AI from=
 a strategic point of view creates a dependency on the USA. The global narr=
ative is that as a partner, the USA can no longer be depended on. It is why=
 Europe and China are moving away from products that are keyed to the US na=
tional interest including products like SWIFT, personal computing, computin=
g.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>When some US based megalomanic=C2=A0billi=
onaires outcompete each other to develop AI, they are a substantial=C2=A0pr=
oducer of worldwide CO2, this while we are already past tipping points we s=
hould not cross when we want to have a livable earth. When it is considered=
 a fact that a billion people use ChatGPT, I wonder if that is because a lo=
t of the hardware and software is infused with AI.=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><div>AI production is not only producing CO2 it is actively using up wate=
r where there is not enough to go around in the quantity desired by AI fact=
ories. There is a reason why people do not want AI factories in their backy=
ard and there is a reason why these factories are announced when permission=
s have already been granted.</div><div><br></div><div>Google used to use gr=
een energy for its services, it no longer can.. the same is true for all AI=
 companies.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>AI is used in a strategic fashio=
n and it cannot be assumed to be/remain globally available. We are a global=
 organisation and our public is global. AI, in its current iteration, is so=
mething we cannot afford. When we provide a search engine with all our refe=
rences, with inclusion of like minded organisations, when videos are includ=
ed and when we enable annotation to all we offer, we do not offer a substit=
ute for AI but we offer something substantially more inclusive than just Wi=
kipedia.</div><div><br></div><div>Also, when the WMF wants to be green, it =
can source its energy from a supplier that provides green energy. When that=
 is not possible, it can build an equivalent=C2=A0new capacity and provide =
it on the grid. Then again, in this argument we consider AI not WMF.</div><=
div>Thanks,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0GerardM</div></div><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Fri, 10 Jul 2026 at 20:05, Steven Walling &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 1=
0:36=E2=80=AFAM Gerard Meijssen via Wikimedia-l &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wikim=
[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]=
rg</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hoi,<div>How does that raise more eyeballs to our data, =
to our projects.=C2=A0Why would we build this to serve companies that raise=
 CO2 with 35%?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Why support AI at all when it=
 is killing our future!</div><div>Thanks,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ge=
rardM</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Gerard,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">ChatGPT a=
lone has over a billion monthly active users and these=C2=A0platforms are g=
rowing rapidly (note the survey data I linked to previously in thread).=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Everything Wikimedia=
 does has a CO2 emissions cost. We are not carbon neutral today as far as I=
 am aware, though I would bet many of us would agree that is a goal worth p=
ursuing.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Steven</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"auto"></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Fri, 10 Jul 2026 at 19:30, Steven Walling via Wikimedia-l &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l=
@lists.wikimedia.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 9:52=E2=80=AFA=
M Erik Moeller via Wikimedia-l &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wikimedia-l-RusutVdil2iUmLTBS4g/[email protected]=
media.org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Fri, Jul 10,=
 2026 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi=
[email protected]</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Yah a search engine that actually gives real references that supports =
the statements in question would be amazing.<br>
<br>
Almost like .. a Knowledge Engine. ;-)<br></blockquote><div><br></div>Is th=
e WMF building an MCP server to connect Wikipedia and Wikidata directly to =
Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT? This is a more lightweight, backdoor way to le=
verage the audience of those platforms but present structured outputs to AI=
 chats for users based on Wikimedia knowledge.=C2=A0<span style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color:transparent">If we did so, we could present citations within the r=
eturned responses to users, and those platforms make it transparent to the =
user when they are calling a particular tool.=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"ba=
ckground-color:transparent">=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
span style=3D"background-color:transparent"><br></span></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Steven Walling=C2=
=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">Sadly, the only realistic path I see there would be t=
hrough<br>
acquisition, and even if that was financially feasible, you&#39;d begin by<=
br>
inheriting a lot of corporate practices that aren&#39;t really consistent<b=
r>
with Wikimedia values.<br>
<br>
But perhaps there is a middle ground where Wikimedia seeks to define<br>
more clearly the terms of engagement that it wants with search engines<br>
(clear attribution, clear and correct references, calls-to-edit,<br>
etc.), and then finds and recognizes search partners who implement<br>
those. To Luis&#39; point, that need not be done by WMF.<br>
<br>
Warmly,<br>
<br>
Erik<br>
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