Re: Do we even know what a good AI Optimization strategy would be for Wikipedia? Re: Re: Google Zero is coming [was Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)]
Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l <[email protected]> Sat, 11 Jul 2026 08:53:05 -0600
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAGToUqwG+sAcbRtTDm9=WR0UZ7Y6yc8LNZz-_zYBnP546YtjnQ@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============1660879387969112078== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054f23506565705d4" --00000000000054f23506565705d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are you talking about that godawful thing that I just clicked on in the "wheat" article, that the back button doesn't work on? I'm pulling that out. Sorry, but "back button works" is a basic thing of Web functionality. I should not need to click a "return to article" button to get back where I was. Todd On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l < [email protected]> wrote: > English Wikipedia is a conservative organization / project as are many > other large versions of Wikipedia. Many stakeholders need to be convinced= / > brought on board to make even relatively minor changes. Innovating within > smaller versions of Wikipedia or in other projects outside Wikipedia is > much easier. And successes can occasionally be brought into the larger > Wikipedias such as we did with Our World in Data interactive graphs... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat#Production_and_consumption > > We have now added 100s of these in various languages. And they are gettin= g > thousands of plays a day. > > James > > On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 3:28=E2=80=AFPM Charles Roberson via Wikimedia-l = < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Wikimedia-I used to be a premium listserve of high minded ideas about ho= w >> to move the Foundation into the future. The past few months it has drift= ed >> into a lot of whining about AI with no real effort to accomplish anythin= g >> or even plan to do so. >> >> - Charles >> >> On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 1:44=E2=80=AFAM Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> We sure do know what a good AI strategy looks like for Wikipedia. No AI >>> on Wikipedia. >>> >>> We have not succeeded by being FaceGramTwitTube. We have succeeded by >>> not being like them. >>> >>> So, same here. No "latest and greatest". No AI on Wikipedia. Ever, for >>> any reason, period. Wikipedia is written by people for people. >>> >>> Todd >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 11:09=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l = < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> What has motivated me to spend time writing Wikipedia over the years i= s >>>> writing for humans. The fact that the content is openly licensed and t= he >>>> work is supported by an NGO is also key. >>>> >>>> Personally i do not feel any motivation to write primarily for trillio= n >>>> dollar machines surrounded by venture capital folks hoping to make a >>>> killing. If the machines want to adapt to human facing content sure. >>>> >>>> The approaches you mention is how Healthline succeeded, they basically >>>> have dozens of articles covering the same topic just addressing it fro= m a >>>> slightly different question. >>>> >>>> J >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 21:24 Alex Stinson via Wikimedia-l < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Forking this conversation, because I don't think we have a shared >>>>> framing of what we are competing for in a "Google" Zero landscape dom= inated >>>>> by ChatBot/AI search style RAG citations (i.e. >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation). >>>>> >>>>> For the last 9 months, I've been examining how civil society content >>>>> should be showing up in AI search, and there is a missing perspective= in >>>>> our "we will build it and they will come" approach to Wikipedia. I do= n't >>>>> think we can wait for the big tech companies or European regulatory b= odies >>>>> to adopt a different idea of how RAG should work. Here is my take f= rom >>>>> what I have been engaging with in the AIO/AEO/SEO space: >>>>> >>>>> *Wikipedia doesn't have content that is SEO/AEO optimized* >>>>> >>>>> Part of the problem, even if we did have an MCP server is that the >>>>> models (at least in my tracking), are pushing many citations away fro= m >>>>> "factual" websites, towards "authoritative" websites. This authoritat= ive >>>>> content includes: >>>>> >>>>> - Expert original, analysis that makes strong claims based on >>>>> facts (i.e. blog posts by authoritative companies or recently publ= ished >>>>> ScienceDirect articles) >>>>> - Content that has been updated recently, with the biggest "hot >>>>> takes" (i.e. I have monitored a couple of prompt pools where citat= ions >>>>> shift to newer content after 2-3 months) >>>>> - Content that helps users make a decision between different >>>>> choices (i.e. review websites, etc) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is following Google's longer-term push towards "human centered >>>>> and useful" content (sometimes called E-E-A-T an abbreviation of >>>>> experience, expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness, in SEO >>>>> world). >>>>> https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fundamentals/creating-helpf= ul-content >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To win in an AI optimization battle -- its less about Wikipedia doing >>>>> well in the keyword search indexes that led to our content being visi= ble >>>>> (which is why we have a reputation as a "fact checking" website) and = more >>>>> about "winning" in the criteria for what makes a good RAG citation --= - and >>>>> our content format, is the exact opposite of the EAAT criteria: >>>>> >>>>> - Wikipedia is not authoriative, but rather points to other >>>>> authorities >>>>> - We ground our content in anonymity instead of named experts or >>>>> instutional process/opinoin >>>>> - We rarely do original analysis instead summarizing the >>>>> experience and expertise of others, >>>>> - Alot of our content is out of date, and self-aware of its gaps >>>>> (i.e. maintenance tags), so also is likely to be undermining its o= wn >>>>> trustworthiness >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *All the data points to us being used, but without an official roundu= p >>>>> we are all talking in the dark about different assumed reputation los= ses* >>>>> >>>>> RAG unlike Google Search Indexing, seems to be using Wikipedia for a >>>>> fraction of a fraction of responses, favoring these other kinds of >>>>> sources: >>>>> >>>>> - Only 5% of AI overviews have Wikipedia in them: >>>>> https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains-ai-overviews/ >>>>> - I have access to SERanking's corpus of prompt monitoring across >>>>> 5 models (ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google Models and they suggest that= in May >>>>> ~16% of prompts included Wikipdia, and in their most recent month = (June), >>>>> ~13% of prompts. SERankings corpus is probably the # 4 or 5 in com= mercial >>>>> AIO data -- so could have gaps. >>>>> - Studies from earlier in the year put Wikipedia at about ~13% of >>>>> CHATGPT citations ( >>>>> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-now-= drive-over-25-of-chatgpt-citations-in-the-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-nyt= -and-bloomberg-do-not-appear-in-the-top-20-302768339.html >>>>> but chatgpt on average includes >20 sources in a response, compare= d to >>>>> googles 5-10 and doesn't expose it in the interface very well) >>>>> - Comparable "top" Websites, like Youtube, Reddit, and LinkedIn >>>>> tend to represent a greater % of content (in the SERanking data po= ol nearly >>>>> 30% of responses had a Youtube Video cited for instance) >>>>> - Domain specific citation pools have pretty significant >>>>> differences in "which" sources are being called, with Wikipedia do= ing well >>>>> on some prompt pools: https://generativepulse.ai/report/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *RAG/AI search optimization focuses more on intent than keywords, and >>>>> we aren't very effective at serving intent, and we don't know where o= ur >>>>> optimization options are* >>>>> What we need is an understanding of "which actual user reader behavio= r >>>>> are we seeking to serve?". In the past we were extremely lazy, becaus= e >>>>> keyword search always delivered Wikipedia as "a first". Now we need o= ur >>>>> content to be more optimized for the kind of user curiosity driving t= heir >>>>> use of a chatbot/search tool: >>>>> >>>>> - What percentage of prompts or AI searches are informational vs >>>>> opinion forming? Are we even a competitor for grounding opinion ba= sed >>>>> questions or only the informational ones? >>>>> - How many of the interactions are two or three steps down a chain >>>>> of more "specific" interactions with the chatbot and thus no longe= r need >>>>> "general knowledge" information from Wikipedia, but rather the kin= ds of >>>>> stuff that we rely on our citations to provide ? >>>>> - How much are the AI companies optimizing for "sales" or >>>>> "addiction" rather than for leading users to reliable content? (I = was >>>>> tracking a series of informational topics about food that (on Chat= GPT and >>>>> Google), kept wanting me to continue the conversation by *inviting >>>>> me to go to local hamburger restraunts)*. Do we even have a >>>>> reasonable chance to be in those searches? >>>>> - How much is geolocation forcing more and more responses into >>>>> "local" sources rather than "global" websites? In one dataset I tr= acked, in >>>>> Global South countries citations were overwhelmingly to Facebook a= nd >>>>> Instagram despite more authoritative academic, news and Wikipedia-= type >>>>> sites in the same searches from the UK. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *We may need to radically change the "readable signals" on our conten= t >>>>> pages, meaning changing the Manual of Style, Editing Practices, and A= I >>>>> enabled enrichment.* >>>>> >>>>> If we are trying to market Wikipedia's content into AI interfaces, we >>>>> also can't do what most AI optimization/marketing agencies would sugg= est: >>>>> writing listicle/FAQ type content that closely matches the user-queri= es >>>>> that folks are giving the IA models (i.e. analysis like: >>>>> https://neilpatel.com/marketing-stats/trust-signals-ai-engines-reward= -most/ >>>>> ). >>>>> >>>>> We would then have to experiment with other content types, that _no >>>>> longer look like the encyclopedia_. Or we would need to be reconfigur= ing >>>>> the Encyclopedic content to expose enrichments to paragraphs or secti= ons >>>>> within the encyclopedia that pretty radically change editorial assup= mtions >>>>> and our Manual of Style (i.e. instead of simple 1-2 word section head= ings, >>>>> like "History" we may need intent-focused headings like "What is the >>>>> history of [x topic]?). >>>>> >>>>> If we want to compete in the shifting AI search landscape -- we would >>>>> need a lot more data from the Foundation on where we are succeeding o= r not, >>>>> and then consider *_radically different_ *ways of exposing our >>>>> content in terms of treating RAG systems as a user that needs correct= paths >>>>> to Wikipedia pages. >>>>> >>>>> However, this doesn't necessarily need to change the *human reader >>>>> experience *, but would need to be about configuring the content >>>>> (beyond an MCP server or Enterpise APIs) *for an AI audience/consumer >>>>> experience -- *which I haven't seen addressed in any WMF publications >>>>> or community conversations. Without a firm theory of "What kind of co= nsumer >>>>> is an AI search agent/RAG index?" and "How does our content need to s= erve >>>>> that AI audience?" the editing community won't be able to adjust its >>>>> editing practices or weigh in on feature recommendations that make ou= r >>>>> content "AI useful". >>>>> >>>>> As I have written elsewhere, I think there is a inherent audience for >>>>> editing/using the Wikis organically: >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-21= /Op-ed >>>>> -- but its a different question than competing "with other informatio= n >>>>> sources" for AI as an audience. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Steven Walling via Wikimedia-= l < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 9:52=E2=80=AFAM Erik Moeller via Wikimedia-l= < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia= -l >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Yah a search engine that actually gives real references that >>>>>>> supports the statements in question would be amazing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Almost like .. a Knowledge Engine. ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the WMF building an MCP server to connect Wikipedia and Wikidata >>>>>> directly to Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT? This is a more lightweight, >>>>>> backdoor way to leverage the audience of those platforms but present >>>>>> structured outputs to AI chats for users based on Wikimedia knowledg= e. If >>>>>> we did so, we could present citations within the returned responses = to >>>>>> users, and those platforms make it transparent to the user when they= are >>>>>> calling a particular tool. >>>>>> >>>>>> Steven Walling >>>>>> >>>>>> Sadly, the only realistic path I see there would be through >>>>>>> acquisition, and even if that was financially feasible, you'd begin >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> inheriting a lot of corporate practices that aren't really consiste= nt >>>>>>> with Wikimedia values. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But perhaps there is a middle ground where Wikimedia seeks to defin= e >>>>>>> more clearly the terms of engagement that it wants with search >>>>>>> engines >>>>>>> (clear attribution, clear and correct references, calls-to-edit, >>>>>>> etc.), and then finds and recognizes search partners who implement >>>>>>> those. To Luis' point, that need not be done by WMF. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Erik >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= edia.org/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OXOS/ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= dia.org/message/IUDAKJRN5EQT5CCWEEYQXKDSVXCDBXR6/ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM8Xa4x6EXUF0@public.gmane.org= g >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>> guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> Public archives at >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= ia.org/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4QXE/ >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guideline= s >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> Public archives at >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= a.org/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXIIBD/ >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= .org/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIFDD/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= org/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQK4/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org > > > > -- > James Heilman > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= rg/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7KF/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --00000000000054f23506565705d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Are you talking about that godawful thing that I just= clicked on in the "wheat" article, that the back button doesn= 9;t work on?</div><div><br></div><div>I'm pulling that out. Sorry, but = "back button works" is a basic thing of Web functionality. I shou= ld not need to click a "return to article" button to get back whe= re I was.</div><div><br></div><div>Todd</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_= quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, = Jul 11, 2026 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l <<a href= =3D"mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]= </a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:= 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">= <div dir=3D"ltr">English Wikipedia is a conservative organization / project= as are many other large versions of Wikipedia. Many stakeholders need to b= e convinced / brought on board to make even relatively minor changes. Innov= ating within smaller versions of Wikipedia or in other projects outside Wik= ipedia is much easier. And successes can occasionally=C2=A0be brought into = the larger Wikipedias such as we did with Our World in Data interactive gra= phs...<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat#Pr= oduction_and_consumption" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W= heat#Production_and_consumption</a></div><div><br></div><div>We have now ad= ded 100s of these in various languages. And they are getting thousands of p= lays a day.</div><div><br></div><div>James</div></div><br><div class=3D"gma= il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 3:2= 8=E2=80=AFPM Charles Roberson via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:wikimed= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= </a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:= 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">= <div dir=3D"ltr">Wikimedia-I used to be a premium listserve=C2=A0of high mi= nded ideas about how to move the Foundation into the future. The past few m= onths it has drifted into a lot of whining about AI with no real effort to = accomplish anything or even plan to do so.<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0- Charl= es</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai= l_attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 1:44=E2=80=AFAM Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"= gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20= 4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>We sure do know what a g= ood AI strategy looks like for Wikipedia. No AI on Wikipedia.</div><div><br= ></div><div>We have not succeeded by being FaceGramTwitTube. We have succee= ded by not being like them.</div><div><br></div><div>So, same here. No &quo= t;latest and greatest". No AI on Wikipedia. Ever, for any reason, peri= od. Wikipedia is written by people for people.</div><div><br></div><div>Tod= d</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail= _attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 11:09=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia= -l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank"= >[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">What has motivated me to= spend time writing Wikipedia over the years is writing for humans. The fac= t that the content is openly licensed and the work is supported by an NGO i= s also key.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Personally i= do not feel any motivation to write primarily for trillion dollar machines= surrounded by venture capital folks hoping to make a killing. If the machi= nes want to adapt to human facing content sure.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>= </div><div dir=3D"auto">The approaches you mention is how Healthline succee= ded, they basically have dozens of articles covering the same topic just ad= dressing it from a slightly different question.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto= "><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">J</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"al= l"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from Gmail Mobile</= div></div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 21:24 Alex Stinson via Wikimedia-l = <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"= gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20= 4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Forking this= conversation, because I don't think we have a shared framing of what w= e are competing for in a "Google" Zero landscape dominated by Cha= tBot/AI search style RAG citations (i.e. <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.or= g/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikiped= ia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation</a>).<br><br>For the last 9 mont= hs, I've been examining how civil society content should be showing up = in AI search, and there is a missing perspective in our "we will build= it and they will come" approach to Wikipedia. I don't think we ca= n wait for the big tech companies or European regulatory bodies to adopt a = different idea of how RAG should work.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here is my take from wha= t I have been engaging with in the AIO/AEO/SEO space:<br><br><b>Wikipedia d= oesn't have content that is SEO/AEO optimized</b><br><br>Part of the pr= oblem, even if we did have an MCP server is that the models=C2=A0(at least = in my tracking), are pushing many citations away from "factual" w= ebsites, towards "authoritative" websites. This authoritative con= tent includes:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>Expert original, analysis that makes strong= claims based on facts (i.e. blog posts by authoritative companies or recen= tly published ScienceDirect articles)</li><li>Content that has been updated= recently, with the biggest "hot takes" (i.e. I have monitored a = couple of prompt pools where citations shift to newer content after 2-3 mon= ths)</li><li>Content that helps users make a decision between different cho= ices (i.e. review websites, etc)</li></ul><br>This is following Google'= s longer-term push towards "human centered and useful" content (s= ometimes called=C2=A0=C2=A0E-E-A-T an abbreviation of=C2=A0 experience, exp= ertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness, in SEO world).=C2=A0<a href= =3D"https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fundamentals/creating-helpful= -content" target=3D"_blank">https://developers.google.com/search/docs/funda= mentals/creating-helpful-content</a>=C2=A0<br><br>To win in an AI optimizat= ion battle -- its less about Wikipedia doing well in the keyword search ind= exes that led to our content being visible (which is why we have a reputati= on as a "fact checking" website) and more about "winning&quo= t; in the criteria for what makes a good RAG citation --- and our content f= ormat, is the exact opposite of the EAAT criteria:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>Wikiped= ia is not authoriative, but rather points to other authorities</li><li>We g= round our content in anonymity instead of named experts or instutional proc= ess/opinoin</li><li>We rarely do original analysis instead summarizing the = experience and expertise of others,=C2=A0</li><li>Alot of our content is ou= t of date, and self-aware of its gaps (i.e. maintenance tags), so also is l= ikely to be undermining its own trustworthiness</li></ul><br><b>All the dat= a points to us being used, but without an official roundup we are all=C2=A0= talking in the dark about different assumed reputation losses</b><br><br>RA= G unlike Google Search Indexing, seems to be using Wikipedia for a fraction= of a fraction of responses, favoring these other kinds of sources:=C2=A0= =C2=A0<br><ul><li>Only 5% of AI overviews have Wikipedia in them:=C2=A0<a h= ref=3D"https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains-ai-overviews/" target=3D"= _blank">https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains-ai-overviews/</a></li><l= i>I have access to SERanking's corpus of prompt monitoring across 5 mod= els (ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google Models and they suggest that in May ~16% o= f prompts included Wikipdia, and in their most recent month (June), ~13% of= prompts. SERankings corpus is probably the # 4 or 5 in commercial AIO data= -- so could have gaps.</li><li>Studies from earlier in the year put Wikipe= dia at about ~13% of CHATGPT citations ( <a href=3D"https://www.prnewswire.= com/news-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-now-drive-over-25-of-chatgpt-citatio= ns-in-the-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-nyt-and-bloomberg-do-not-appear-in-= the-top-20-302768339.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.prnewswire.com/new= s-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-now-drive-over-25-of-chatgpt-citations-in-t= he-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-nyt-and-bloomberg-do-not-appear-in-the-top= -20-302768339.html</a> but chatgpt on average includes >20 sources in a = response, compared to googles 5-10 and doesn't expose it in the interfa= ce very well)=C2=A0</li><li>Comparable "top" Websites, like Youtu= be, Reddit, and LinkedIn tend to represent a greater % of content (in the S= ERanking data pool nearly 30% of responses had a Youtube Video cited for in= stance)</li><li>Domain specific citation pools have pretty significant diff= erences in "which" sources are being called, with Wikipedia doing= well on some prompt pools:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://generativepulse.ai/repo= rt/" target=3D"_blank">https://generativepulse.ai/report/</a></li></ul><br>= <br><b>RAG/AI search optimization focuses more on intent than keywords, and= we aren't very effective at serving intent, and we don't know wher= e our optimization options are<br></b><br>What we need is an understanding = of "which actual user reader behavior are we seeking to serve?". = In the past we were extremely lazy, because keyword search always delivered= Wikipedia as "a first". Now we need our content to be more optim= ized for the kind of user curiosity driving their use of a chatbot/search t= ool:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>What percentage of prompts or AI searches are informa= tional vs opinion forming? Are we even a competitor for grounding opinion b= ased questions or only the informational ones?</li><li>How many of the inte= ractions are two or three steps down a chain of more "specific" i= nteractions with the chatbot and thus no longer need "general knowledg= e" information from Wikipedia, but rather the kinds of stuff that we r= ely on our citations to provide ?=C2=A0</li><li>How much are the AI compani= es optimizing for "sales" or "addiction" rather than fo= r leading users to reliable content? (I was tracking a series of informatio= nal topics about food that (on ChatGPT and Google), kept wanting me to cont= inue the conversation by <i>inviting me to go to local hamburger restraunts= )</i>. Do we even have a reasonable chance to be in those searches?</li><li= >How much is geolocation forcing more and more responses into "local&q= uot; sources rather than "global" websites? In one dataset I trac= ked, in Global South countries citations were overwhelmingly to Facebook an= d Instagram despite more authoritative academic, news and Wikipedia-type si= tes in the same searches from the UK.</li></ul><br><b>We may need to radica= lly change the "readable signals" on our content pages, meaning c= hanging the Manual of Style, Editing Practices, and AI enabled enrichment.<= /b><br><br>If we are trying to market Wikipedia's content into AI inter= faces, we also can't do what most AI optimization/marketing agencies wo= uld suggest: writing listicle/FAQ type content that closely matches the use= r-queries that folks are giving the IA models (i.e. analysis like: <a href= =3D"https://neilpatel.com/marketing-stats/trust-signals-ai-engines-reward-m= ost/" target=3D"_blank">https://neilpatel.com/marketing-stats/trust-signals= -ai-engines-reward-most/</a> ). <br><br>We would then have to experiment wi= th other content types, that _no longer look like the encyclopedia_. Or we = would need to be reconfiguring the Encyclopedic content to expose enrichmen= ts to paragraphs or sections within the encyclopedia=C2=A0 that pretty radi= cally change editorial assupmtions and our Manual of Style (i.e. instead of= simple 1-2 word section headings, like "History" we may need int= ent-focused headings like "What is the history of [x topic]?).=C2=A0<b= r><br>If we want to compete in the shifting AI search landscape -- we would= need a lot more data from the Foundation on where we are succeeding or not= , and then consider <i>_radically different_ </i>ways of exposing our conte= nt in terms of treating RAG systems as a user that needs correct paths to W= ikipedia pages.<br>=C2=A0<br>However, this doesn't necessarily need to = change the <i>human=C2=A0reader experience </i>, but would need to be about= configuring the content (beyond an MCP server or Enterpise APIs)=C2=A0<i>f= or an AI audience/consumer experience -- </i>which I haven't seen addre= ssed in any WMF publications or community conversations. Without a firm the= ory of "What kind of consumer is an AI search agent/RAG index?" a= nd "How does our content need to serve that AI audience?" the edi= ting community won't be able to adjust its editing practices or weigh i= n on feature recommendations that make our content "AI useful".<b= r><br>As I have written elsewhere, I think there is a inherent audience for= editing/using the Wikis organically:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.= org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-21/Op-ed" target=3D"_blank">h= ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-21/Op-ed<= /a> -- but its a different question than competing "with other informa= tion sources" for AI as an audience.<br><br><br><br><br></div><br><div= class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10= , 2026 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Steven Walling via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mai= lto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]= kimedia.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= -left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gm= ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 9:= 52=E2=80=AFAM Erik Moeller via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:wikimedia-= [email protected]" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a= >> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px= 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On = Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l<br> <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > Yah a search engine that actually gives real references that supports = the statements in question would be amazing.<br> <br> Almost like .. a Knowledge Engine. ;-)<br></blockquote><div><br></div>Is th= e WMF building an MCP server to connect Wikipedia and Wikidata directly to = Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT? This is a more lightweight, backdoor way to le= verage the audience of those platforms but present structured outputs to AI= chats for users based on Wikimedia knowledge.=C2=A0<span style=3D"backgrou= nd-color:transparent">If we did so, we could present citations within the r= eturned responses to users, and those platforms make it transparent to the = user when they are calling a particular tool.=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"ba= ckground-color:transparent">=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><= span style=3D"background-color:transparent"><br></span></div><div class=3D"= gmail_quote"><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Steven Walling=C2= =A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2= 04);padding-left:1ex">Sadly, the only realistic path I see there would be t= hrough<br> acquisition, and even if that was financially feasible, you'd begin by<= br> inheriting a lot of corporate practices that aren't really consistent<b= r> with Wikimedia values.<br> <br> But perhaps there is a middle ground where Wikimedia seeks to define<br> more clearly the terms of engagement that it wants with search engines<br> (clear attribution, clear and correct references, calls-to-edit,<br> etc.), and then finds and recognizes search partners who implement<br> those. To Luis' point, that need not be done by WMF.<br> <br> Warmly,<br> <br> Erik<br> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OXOS/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OX= OS/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/IUDAKJRN5EQT5CCWEEYQXKDSVXCDBXR6/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/IUDAKJRN5EQT5CCWEEYQXKDSVXCDBX= R6/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4QXE/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4Q= XE/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXIIBD/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXII= BD/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIFDD/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIF= DD/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQK4/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQ= K4/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=3D= "gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_sign= ature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"= ltr">James Heilman<br>MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian</div></div></div></div></div>= </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7KF/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7= KF/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> --00000000000054f23506565705d4-- --===============1660879387969112078== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/XILTKQ2VLVFZKTY5BEYP55426JVAU5VY/ To unsubscribe send an email to 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