Re: Do we even know what a good AI Optimization strategy would be for Wikipedia? Re: Re: Google Zero is coming [was Re: Wikipedia at 25: A Wake-Up Call (essay)]
James Heilman via Wikimedia-l <[email protected]> Sat, 11 Jul 2026 17:03:34 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.org.wikimedia.foundation |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <CAF1en7XNVB8Wxf9OuekmBLBtYdrpfe=nG9XysjB1uwtdfgfuog@mail.gmail.com> |
--===============0842483640202464256== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f067bd0656572929" --000000000000f067bd0656572929 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The blue "Return to article" button works just fine. But yes thanks for pointing out that the back button within the Google chrome browser does not work. Will work on fixing that. J On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 4:54=E2=80=AFPM Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l < [email protected]> wrote: > Are you talking about that godawful thing that I just clicked on in the > "wheat" article, that the back button doesn't work on? > > I'm pulling that out. Sorry, but "back button works" is a basic thing of > Web functionality. I should not need to click a "return to article" butto= n > to get back where I was. > > Todd > > On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> English Wikipedia is a conservative organization / project as are many >> other large versions of Wikipedia. Many stakeholders need to be convince= d / >> brought on board to make even relatively minor changes. Innovating withi= n >> smaller versions of Wikipedia or in other projects outside Wikipedia is >> much easier. And successes can occasionally be brought into the larger >> Wikipedias such as we did with Our World in Data interactive graphs... >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat#Production_and_consumption >> >> We have now added 100s of these in various languages. And they are >> getting thousands of plays a day. >> >> James >> >> On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 3:28=E2=80=AFPM Charles Roberson via Wikimedia-l= < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Wikimedia-I used to be a premium listserve of high minded ideas about >>> how to move the Foundation into the future. The past few months it has >>> drifted into a lot of whining about AI with no real effort to accomplis= h >>> anything or even plan to do so. >>> >>> - Charles >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 1:44=E2=80=AFAM Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> We sure do know what a good AI strategy looks like for Wikipedia. No A= I >>>> on Wikipedia. >>>> >>>> We have not succeeded by being FaceGramTwitTube. We have succeeded by >>>> not being like them. >>>> >>>> So, same here. No "latest and greatest". No AI on Wikipedia. Ever, for >>>> any reason, period. Wikipedia is written by people for people. >>>> >>>> Todd >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 11:09=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l= < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> What has motivated me to spend time writing Wikipedia over the years >>>>> is writing for humans. The fact that the content is openly licensed a= nd the >>>>> work is supported by an NGO is also key. >>>>> >>>>> Personally i do not feel any motivation to write primarily for >>>>> trillion dollar machines surrounded by venture capital folks hoping t= o make >>>>> a killing. If the machines want to adapt to human facing content sure= . >>>>> >>>>> The approaches you mention is how Healthline succeeded, they basicall= y >>>>> have dozens of articles covering the same topic just addressing it fr= om a >>>>> slightly different question. >>>>> >>>>> J >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 21:24 Alex Stinson via Wikimedia-l < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Forking this conversation, because I don't think we have a shared >>>>>> framing of what we are competing for in a "Google" Zero landscape do= minated >>>>>> by ChatBot/AI search style RAG citations (i.e. >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation). >>>>>> >>>>>> For the last 9 months, I've been examining how civil society content >>>>>> should be showing up in AI search, and there is a missing perspectiv= e in >>>>>> our "we will build it and they will come" approach to Wikipedia. I d= on't >>>>>> think we can wait for the big tech companies or European regulatory = bodies >>>>>> to adopt a different idea of how RAG should work. Here is my take = from >>>>>> what I have been engaging with in the AIO/AEO/SEO space: >>>>>> >>>>>> *Wikipedia doesn't have content that is SEO/AEO optimized* >>>>>> >>>>>> Part of the problem, even if we did have an MCP server is that the >>>>>> models (at least in my tracking), are pushing many citations away fr= om >>>>>> "factual" websites, towards "authoritative" websites. This authorita= tive >>>>>> content includes: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Expert original, analysis that makes strong claims based on >>>>>> facts (i.e. blog posts by authoritative companies or recently pub= lished >>>>>> ScienceDirect articles) >>>>>> - Content that has been updated recently, with the biggest "hot >>>>>> takes" (i.e. I have monitored a couple of prompt pools where cita= tions >>>>>> shift to newer content after 2-3 months) >>>>>> - Content that helps users make a decision between different >>>>>> choices (i.e. review websites, etc) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is following Google's longer-term push towards "human centered >>>>>> and useful" content (sometimes called E-E-A-T an abbreviation of >>>>>> experience, expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness, in SE= O >>>>>> world). >>>>>> https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fundamentals/creating-help= ful-content >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To win in an AI optimization battle -- its less about Wikipedia doin= g >>>>>> well in the keyword search indexes that led to our content being vis= ible >>>>>> (which is why we have a reputation as a "fact checking" website) and= more >>>>>> about "winning" in the criteria for what makes a good RAG citation -= -- and >>>>>> our content format, is the exact opposite of the EAAT criteria: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Wikipedia is not authoriative, but rather points to other >>>>>> authorities >>>>>> - We ground our content in anonymity instead of named experts or >>>>>> instutional process/opinoin >>>>>> - We rarely do original analysis instead summarizing the >>>>>> experience and expertise of others, >>>>>> - Alot of our content is out of date, and self-aware of its gaps >>>>>> (i.e. maintenance tags), so also is likely to be undermining its = own >>>>>> trustworthiness >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *All the data points to us being used, but without an official >>>>>> roundup we are all talking in the dark about different assumed reput= ation >>>>>> losses* >>>>>> >>>>>> RAG unlike Google Search Indexing, seems to be using Wikipedia for a >>>>>> fraction of a fraction of responses, favoring these other kinds of >>>>>> sources: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Only 5% of AI overviews have Wikipedia in them: >>>>>> https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains-ai-overviews/ >>>>>> - I have access to SERanking's corpus of prompt monitoring across >>>>>> 5 models (ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google Models and they suggest tha= t in May >>>>>> ~16% of prompts included Wikipdia, and in their most recent month= (June), >>>>>> ~13% of prompts. SERankings corpus is probably the # 4 or 5 in co= mmercial >>>>>> AIO data -- so could have gaps. >>>>>> - Studies from earlier in the year put Wikipedia at about ~13% of >>>>>> CHATGPT citations ( >>>>>> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-now= -drive-over-25-of-chatgpt-citations-in-the-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-ny= t-and-bloomberg-do-not-appear-in-the-top-20-302768339.html >>>>>> but chatgpt on average includes >20 sources in a response, compar= ed to >>>>>> googles 5-10 and doesn't expose it in the interface very well) >>>>>> - Comparable "top" Websites, like Youtube, Reddit, and LinkedIn >>>>>> tend to represent a greater % of content (in the SERanking data p= ool nearly >>>>>> 30% of responses had a Youtube Video cited for instance) >>>>>> - Domain specific citation pools have pretty significant >>>>>> differences in "which" sources are being called, with Wikipedia d= oing well >>>>>> on some prompt pools: https://generativepulse.ai/report/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *RAG/AI search optimization focuses more on intent than keywords, an= d >>>>>> we aren't very effective at serving intent, and we don't know where = our >>>>>> optimization options are* >>>>>> What we need is an understanding of "which actual user reader >>>>>> behavior are we seeking to serve?". In the past we were extremely la= zy, >>>>>> because keyword search always delivered Wikipedia as "a first". Now = we need >>>>>> our content to be more optimized for the kind of user curiosity driv= ing >>>>>> their use of a chatbot/search tool: >>>>>> >>>>>> - What percentage of prompts or AI searches are informational vs >>>>>> opinion forming? Are we even a competitor for grounding opinion b= ased >>>>>> questions or only the informational ones? >>>>>> - How many of the interactions are two or three steps down a >>>>>> chain of more "specific" interactions with the chatbot and thus n= o longer >>>>>> need "general knowledge" information from Wikipedia, but rather t= he kinds >>>>>> of stuff that we rely on our citations to provide ? >>>>>> - How much are the AI companies optimizing for "sales" or >>>>>> "addiction" rather than for leading users to reliable content? (I= was >>>>>> tracking a series of informational topics about food that (on Cha= tGPT and >>>>>> Google), kept wanting me to continue the conversation by *invitin= g >>>>>> me to go to local hamburger restraunts)*. Do we even have a >>>>>> reasonable chance to be in those searches? >>>>>> - How much is geolocation forcing more and more responses into >>>>>> "local" sources rather than "global" websites? In one dataset I t= racked, in >>>>>> Global South countries citations were overwhelmingly to Facebook = and >>>>>> Instagram despite more authoritative academic, news and Wikipedia= -type >>>>>> sites in the same searches from the UK. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *We may need to radically change the "readable signals" on our >>>>>> content pages, meaning changing the Manual of Style, Editing Practic= es, and >>>>>> AI enabled enrichment.* >>>>>> >>>>>> If we are trying to market Wikipedia's content into AI interfaces, w= e >>>>>> also can't do what most AI optimization/marketing agencies would sug= gest: >>>>>> writing listicle/FAQ type content that closely matches the user-quer= ies >>>>>> that folks are giving the IA models (i.e. analysis like: >>>>>> https://neilpatel.com/marketing-stats/trust-signals-ai-engines-rewar= d-most/ >>>>>> ). >>>>>> >>>>>> We would then have to experiment with other content types, that _no >>>>>> longer look like the encyclopedia_. Or we would need to be reconfigu= ring >>>>>> the Encyclopedic content to expose enrichments to paragraphs or sect= ions >>>>>> within the encyclopedia that pretty radically change editorial assu= pmtions >>>>>> and our Manual of Style (i.e. instead of simple 1-2 word section hea= dings, >>>>>> like "History" we may need intent-focused headings like "What is the >>>>>> history of [x topic]?). >>>>>> >>>>>> If we want to compete in the shifting AI search landscape -- we woul= d >>>>>> need a lot more data from the Foundation on where we are succeeding = or not, >>>>>> and then consider *_radically different_ *ways of exposing our >>>>>> content in terms of treating RAG systems as a user that needs correc= t paths >>>>>> to Wikipedia pages. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, this doesn't necessarily need to change the *human reader >>>>>> experience *, but would need to be about configuring the content >>>>>> (beyond an MCP server or Enterpise APIs) *for an AI >>>>>> audience/consumer experience -- *which I haven't seen addressed in >>>>>> any WMF publications or community conversations. Without a firm theo= ry of >>>>>> "What kind of consumer is an AI search agent/RAG index?" and "How do= es our >>>>>> content need to serve that AI audience?" the editing community won't= be >>>>>> able to adjust its editing practices or weigh in on feature recommen= dations >>>>>> that make our content "AI useful". >>>>>> >>>>>> As I have written elsewhere, I think there is a inherent audience fo= r >>>>>> editing/using the Wikis organically: >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-2= 1/Op-ed >>>>>> -- but its a different question than competing "with other informati= on >>>>>> sources" for AI as an audience. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Steven Walling via Wikimedia= -l < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 9:52=E2=80=AFAM Erik Moeller via Wikimedia-= l < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM James Heilman via Wikimedi= a-l >>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Yah a search engine that actually gives real references that >>>>>>>> supports the statements in question would be amazing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Almost like .. a Knowledge Engine. ;-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the WMF building an MCP server to connect Wikipedia and Wikidata >>>>>>> directly to Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT? This is a more lightweight= , >>>>>>> backdoor way to leverage the audience of those platforms but presen= t >>>>>>> structured outputs to AI chats for users based on Wikimedia knowled= ge. If >>>>>>> we did so, we could present citations within the returned responses= to >>>>>>> users, and those platforms make it transparent to the user when the= y are >>>>>>> calling a particular tool. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steven Walling >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sadly, the only realistic path I see there would be through >>>>>>>> acquisition, and even if that was financially feasible, you'd begi= n >>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>> inheriting a lot of corporate practices that aren't really >>>>>>>> consistent >>>>>>>> with Wikimedia values. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But perhaps there is a middle ground where Wikimedia seeks to defi= ne >>>>>>>> more clearly the terms of engagement that it wants with search >>>>>>>> engines >>>>>>>> (clear attribution, clear and correct references, calls-to-edit, >>>>>>>> etc.), and then finds and recognizes search partners who implement >>>>>>>> those. To Luis' point, that need not be done by WMF. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Warmly, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Erik >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l-RusutVdil2iUmLTBS4g/[email protected]= media.org/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OXOS/ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= edia.org/message/IUDAKJRN5EQT5CCWEEYQXKDSVXCDBXR6/ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>>> guidelines at: >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>>> Public archives at >>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= dia.org/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4QXE/ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM8Xa4x6EXUF0@public.gmane.org= g >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>>> guidelines at: >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>>> Public archives at >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= ia.org/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXIIBD/ >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], >>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guideline= s >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> Public archives at >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= a.org/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIFDD/ >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> Public archives at >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= .org/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQK4/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org >> >> >> >> -- >> James Heilman >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= org/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7KF/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]= rg/message/XILTKQ2VLVFZKTY5BEYP55426JVAU5VY/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org --=20 James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian --000000000000f067bd0656572929 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">The blue "Return to article" button works just f= ine. But yes thanks for pointing out that the back button within the Google= chrome browser does not work. Will work on fixing that.<div><br></div><div= >J</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir= =3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 4:54=E2=80=AFPM Todd = Allen via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Are you talking abou= t that godawful thing that I just clicked on in the "wheat" artic= le, that the back button doesn't work on?</div><div><br></div><div>I= 9;m pulling that out. Sorry, but "back button works" is a basic t= hing of Web functionality. I should not need to click a "return to art= icle" button to get back where I was.</div><div><br></div><div>Todd</d= iv></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att= r">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 8:32=E2=80=AFAM James Heilman via Wikimedia-l &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wiki= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm= ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,= 204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">English Wikipedia is a conserva= tive organization / project as are many other large versions of Wikipedia. = Many stakeholders need to be convinced / brought on board to make even rela= tively minor changes. Innovating within smaller versions of Wikipedia or in= other projects outside Wikipedia is much easier. And successes can occasio= nally=C2=A0be brought into the larger Wikipedias such as we did with Our Wo= rld in Data interactive graphs...<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://en.= wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat#Production_and_consumption" target=3D"_blank">http= s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat#Production_and_consumption</a></div><div><b= r></div><div>We have now added 100s of these in various languages. And they= are getting thousands of plays a day.</div><div><br></div><div>James</div>= </div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">= On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 3:28=E2=80=AFPM Charles Roberson via Wikimedia-l &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wiki= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm= ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,= 204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Wikimedia-I used to be a premiu= m listserve=C2=A0of high minded ideas about how to move the Foundation into= the future. The past few months it has drifted into a lot of whining about= AI with no real effort to accomplish anything or even plan to do so.<div><= br></div><div>=C2=A0- Charles</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di= v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 11, 2026 at 1:44=E2=80=AFAM = Todd Allen via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= a.org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br>= </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b= order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d= iv>We sure do know what a good AI strategy looks like for Wikipedia. No AI = on Wikipedia.</div><div><br></div><div>We have not succeeded by being FaceG= ramTwitTube. We have succeeded by not being like them.</div><div><br></div>= <div>So, same here. No "latest and greatest". No AI on Wikipedia.= Ever, for any reason, period. Wikipedia is written by people for people.</= div><div><br></div><div>Todd</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div= dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 11:09=E2=80=AFPM = James Heilman via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= edia.org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<= br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e= x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto= ">What has motivated me to spend time writing Wikipedia over the years is w= riting for humans. The fact that the content is openly licensed and the wor= k is supported by an NGO is also key.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div= dir=3D"auto">Personally i do not feel any motivation to write primarily fo= r trillion dollar machines surrounded by venture capital folks hoping to ma= ke a killing. If the machines want to adapt to human facing content sure.</= div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The approaches you mentio= n is how Healthline succeeded, they basically have dozens of articles cover= ing the same topic just addressing it from a slightly different question.= =C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">J</div><div><br c= lear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signatu= re">Sent from Gmail Mobile</div></div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu= ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 21:24 Al= ex Stinson via Wikimedia-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= a.org" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br>= </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b= order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d= iv dir=3D"ltr">Forking this conversation, because I don't think we have= a shared framing of what we are competing for in a "Google" Zero= landscape dominated by ChatBot/AI search style RAG citations (i.e. <a href= =3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation" target=3D= "_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrieval-augmented_generation</a>).= <br><br>For the last 9 months, I've been examining how civil society co= ntent should be showing up in AI search, and there is a missing perspective= in our "we will build it and they will come" approach to Wikiped= ia. I don't think we can wait for the big tech companies or European re= gulatory bodies to adopt a different idea of how RAG should work.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Here is my take from what I have been engaging with in the AIO/AEO/SEO s= pace:<br><br><b>Wikipedia doesn't have content that is SEO/AEO optimize= d</b><br><br>Part of the problem, even if we did have an MCP server is that= the models=C2=A0(at least in my tracking), are pushing many citations away= from "factual" websites, towards "authoritative" websi= tes. This authoritative content includes:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>Expert original,= analysis that makes strong claims based on facts (i.e. blog posts by autho= ritative companies or recently published ScienceDirect articles)</li><li>Co= ntent that has been updated recently, with the biggest "hot takes"= ; (i.e. I have monitored a couple of prompt pools where citations shift to = newer content after 2-3 months)</li><li>Content that helps users make a dec= ision between different choices (i.e. review websites, etc)</li></ul><br>Th= is is following Google's longer-term push towards "human centered = and useful" content (sometimes called=C2=A0=C2=A0E-E-A-T an abbreviati= on of=C2=A0 experience, expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness, = in SEO world).=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fu= ndamentals/creating-helpful-content" target=3D"_blank">https://developers.g= oogle.com/search/docs/fundamentals/creating-helpful-content</a>=C2=A0<br><b= r>To win in an AI optimization battle -- its less about Wikipedia doing wel= l in the keyword search indexes that led to our content being visible (whic= h is why we have a reputation as a "fact checking" website) and m= ore about "winning" in the criteria for what makes a good RAG cit= ation --- and our content format, is the exact opposite of the EAAT criteri= a:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>Wikipedia is not authoriative, but rather points to oth= er authorities</li><li>We ground our content in anonymity instead of named = experts or instutional process/opinoin</li><li>We rarely do original analys= is instead summarizing the experience and expertise of others,=C2=A0</li><l= i>Alot of our content is out of date, and self-aware of its gaps (i.e. main= tenance tags), so also is likely to be undermining its own trustworthiness<= /li></ul><br><b>All the data points to us being used, but without an offici= al roundup we are all=C2=A0talking in the dark about different assumed repu= tation losses</b><br><br>RAG unlike Google Search Indexing, seems to be usi= ng Wikipedia for a fraction of a fraction of responses, favoring these othe= r kinds of sources:=C2=A0=C2=A0<br><ul><li>Only 5% of AI overviews have Wik= ipedia in them:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains-= ai-overviews/" target=3D"_blank">https://ahrefs.com/blog/most-cited-domains= -ai-overviews/</a></li><li>I have access to SERanking's corpus of promp= t monitoring across 5 models (ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google Models and they s= uggest that in May ~16% of prompts included Wikipdia, and in their most rec= ent month (June), ~13% of prompts. SERankings corpus is probably the # 4 or= 5 in commercial AIO data -- so could have gaps.</li><li>Studies from earli= er in the year put Wikipedia at about ~13% of CHATGPT citations ( <a href= =3D"https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-now-drive= -over-25-of-chatgpt-citations-in-the-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-nyt-and-= bloomberg-do-not-appear-in-the-top-20-302768339.html" target=3D"_blank">htt= ps://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/wikipedia-and-reddit-now-drive-over-2= 5-of-chatgpt-citations-in-the-us-new-5w-research-finds--wsj-nyt-and-bloombe= rg-do-not-appear-in-the-top-20-302768339.html</a> but chatgpt on average in= cludes >20 sources in a response, compared to googles 5-10 and doesn'= ;t expose it in the interface very well)=C2=A0</li><li>Comparable "top= " Websites, like Youtube, Reddit, and LinkedIn tend to represent a gre= ater % of content (in the SERanking data pool nearly 30% of responses had a= Youtube Video cited for instance)</li><li>Domain specific citation pools h= ave pretty significant differences in "which" sources are being c= alled, with Wikipedia doing well on some prompt pools:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http= s://generativepulse.ai/report/" target=3D"_blank">https://generativepulse.a= i/report/</a></li></ul><br><br><b>RAG/AI search optimization focuses more o= n intent than keywords, and we aren't very effective at serving intent,= and we don't know where our optimization options are<br></b><br>What w= e need is an understanding of "which actual user reader behavior are w= e seeking to serve?". In the past we were extremely lazy, because keyw= ord search always delivered Wikipedia as "a first". Now we need o= ur content to be more optimized for the kind of user curiosity driving thei= r use of a chatbot/search tool:=C2=A0<br><ul><li>What percentage of prompts= or AI searches are informational vs opinion forming? Are we even a competi= tor for grounding opinion based questions or only the informational ones?</= li><li>How many of the interactions are two or three steps down a chain of = more "specific" interactions with the chatbot and thus no longer = need "general knowledge" information from Wikipedia, but rather t= he kinds of stuff that we rely on our citations to provide ?=C2=A0</li><li>= How much are the AI companies optimizing for "sales" or "add= iction" rather than for leading users to reliable content? (I was trac= king a series of informational topics about food that (on ChatGPT and Googl= e), kept wanting me to continue the conversation by <i>inviting me to go to= local hamburger restraunts)</i>. Do we even have a reasonable chance to be= in those searches?</li><li>How much is geolocation forcing more and more r= esponses into "local" sources rather than "global" webs= ites? In one dataset I tracked, in Global South countries citations were ov= erwhelmingly to Facebook and Instagram despite more authoritative academic,= news and Wikipedia-type sites in the same searches from the UK.</li></ul><= br><b>We may need to radically change the "readable signals" on o= ur content pages, meaning changing the Manual of Style, Editing Practices, = and AI enabled enrichment.</b><br><br>If we are trying to market Wikipedia&= #39;s content into AI interfaces, we also can't do what most AI optimiz= ation/marketing agencies would suggest: writing listicle/FAQ type content t= hat closely matches the user-queries that folks are giving the IA models (i= .e. analysis like: <a href=3D"https://neilpatel.com/marketing-stats/trust-s= ignals-ai-engines-reward-most/" target=3D"_blank">https://neilpatel.com/mar= keting-stats/trust-signals-ai-engines-reward-most/</a> ). <br><br>We would = then have to experiment with other content types, that _no longer look like= the encyclopedia_. Or we would need to be reconfiguring the Encyclopedic c= ontent to expose enrichments to paragraphs or sections within the encyclope= dia=C2=A0 that pretty radically change editorial assupmtions and our Manual= of Style (i.e. instead of simple 1-2 word section headings, like "His= tory" we may need intent-focused headings like "What is the histo= ry of [x topic]?).=C2=A0<br><br>If we want to compete in the shifting AI se= arch landscape -- we would need a lot more data from the Foundation on wher= e we are succeeding or not, and then consider <i>_radically different_ </i>= ways of exposing our content in terms of treating RAG systems as a user tha= t needs correct paths to Wikipedia pages.<br>=C2=A0<br>However, this doesn&= #39;t necessarily need to change the <i>human=C2=A0reader experience </i>, = but would need to be about configuring the content (beyond an MCP server or= Enterpise APIs)=C2=A0<i>for an AI audience/consumer experience -- </i>whic= h I haven't seen addressed in any WMF publications or community convers= ations. Without a firm theory of "What kind of consumer is an AI searc= h agent/RAG index?" and "How does our content need to serve that = AI audience?" the editing community won't be able to adjust its ed= iting practices or weigh in on feature recommendations that make our conten= t "AI useful".<br><br>As I have written elsewhere, I think there = is a inherent audience for editing/using the Wikis organically:=C2=A0<a hre= f=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2026-06-21/= Op-ed" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_= Signpost/2026-06-21/Op-ed</a> -- but its a different question than competin= g "with other information sources" for AI as an audience.<br><br>= <br><br><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"= gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 2:30=E2=80=AFPM Steven Walling via Wiki= media-l <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_b= lank">[email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote c= lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli= d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>= </div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">= On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 9:52=E2=80=AFAM Erik Moeller via Wikimedia-l <<a= href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wikimedi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_= quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,= 204);padding-left:1ex">On Fri, Jul 10, 2026 at 5:59=E2=80=AFPM James Heilma= n via Wikimedia-l<br> <<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]" target=3D"_blank">wi= [email protected]</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > Yah a search engine that actually gives real references that supports = the statements in question would be amazing.<br> <br> Almost like .. a Knowledge Engine. ;-)<br></blockquote><div><br></div>Is th= e WMF building an MCP server to connect Wikipedia and Wikidata directly to = Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT? This is a more lightweight, backdoor way to le= verage the audience of those platforms but present structured outputs to AI= chats for users based on Wikimedia knowledge.=C2=A0<span style=3D"backgrou= nd-color:transparent">If we did so, we could present citations within the r= eturned responses to users, and those platforms make it transparent to the = user when they are calling a particular tool.=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"ba= ckground-color:transparent">=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><= span style=3D"background-color:transparent"><br></span></div><div class=3D"= gmail_quote"><span style=3D"background-color:transparent">Steven Walling=C2= =A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2= 04);padding-left:1ex">Sadly, the only realistic path I see there would be t= hrough<br> acquisition, and even if that was financially feasible, you'd begin by<= br> inheriting a lot of corporate practices that aren't really consistent<b= r> with Wikimedia values.<br> <br> But perhaps there is a middle ground where Wikimedia seeks to define<br> more clearly the terms of engagement that it wants with search engines<br> (clear attribution, clear and correct references, calls-to-edit,<br> etc.), and then finds and recognizes search partners who implement<br> those. To Luis' point, that need not be done by WMF.<br> <br> Warmly,<br> <br> Erik<br> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OXOS/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/HNDPDZBBDMILF7WGMUBVJVIAZYQ7OX= OS/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/IUDAKJRN5EQT5CCWEEYQXKDSVXCDBXR6/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/IUDAKJRN5EQT5CCWEEYQXKDSVXCDBX= R6/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4QXE/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/YODBKTCLA2XJC24Y23I2SUN3PUYA4Q= XE/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXIIBD/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/5MPMZGZ2MXLLHER3NTNUS6KHIMAXII= BD/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIFDD/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/QAGHRXXTGSXKVFOALBRQHP5G27NUIF= DD/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQK4/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/6RKSJMWMVUHUUVV7WGKPOCOHCN4NBQ= K4/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=3D= "gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_sign= ature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"= ltr">James Heilman<br>MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian</div></div></div></div></div>= </div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7KF/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/FRGCURSOK3KPMT3UWZFOR6Z4TMZFE7= KF/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div> _______________________________________________<br> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= rg" target=3D"_blank">[email protected]</a>, guidelines at: <= a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines" rel=3D"= noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists= /Guidelines</a> and <a href=3D"https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikim= edia-l</a><br> Public archives at <a href=3D"https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/w= [email protected]/message/XILTKQ2VLVFZKTY5BEYP55426JVAU5VY/" r= el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/= list/[email protected]/message/XILTKQ2VLVFZKTY5BEYP55426JVAU5= VY/</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= ikimedia.org" target=3D"_blank">wikimedia-l-leave-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org</a></= blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class=3D= "gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_sign= ature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"= ltr">James Heilman<br>MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian</div></div></div></div></div>= </div> --000000000000f067bd0656572929-- --===============0842483640202464256== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- [email protected], guidelines 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