Re: OpenBSD Install Goal

Maybe you should consider not sending offensive emails like this if you don't
like the response.  People have worked for many hours putting together an OS
and joe blow shows up telling us what's bad and what we should do to "improve"
our image.  Guess what, you don't get to vote.  Voting in OpenBSD is done with
diffs not with whining.

Oh and curses sucks pretty damn hard.  I installed (un)FreeBSD (for the first
and last time) a few months ago and I fought the installer all the way through.
There is nothing simple and easy about it.  It screws up the screen
continuesly; doesn't display RELEVANT information; oh and never mind using a
serial port with that garbage.  It took me several installs to figure out what
it REALLY was doing and boy was I happy that I could toss that install 15 days
later.

You don't sound like a UNIX person at all.  You sound like a Linux troll who
has never used anything else but a PC and calls it a "server".

On Sun, Dec 24, 2006 at 11:44:34AM +0100, S.A.R. wrote:
> Nick,
> 
> You totally took wrong anything I was pointing out if you took offense to anything, after all why would you?
> 
> I'm sorry you totally took out of context this letter, it was only to point out some things, not poke at anyone.
> 
> Nick you should learn to not think everyone that talks to you, or writes to you does so in anger, or is being negative, in fact when I wrote this letter it was for the Love of Unix.
> 
> This was actually a letter from a Unix lover, asking when are we going to make these systems more approachable for the average user.
> 
> I was just simply talking about all of these types of operating systems in general, but you took this personal for some reason, and you shouldn't of because I was not talking about anything against you or any individual.
> 
> Actually nothing was being said to cut down anything about these systems at all, but just to point out some areas that needed some improvements was all. I mean what software is perfect?
> 
> There was nothing meant to be offensive in anything I said to anyone, it was all general statements about an inanimate piece of software.
> 
> Anyhow please try and relax a little you seem to be someone that has gotten all bent out of shape about this all for nothing.
> 
> The truth is, if you're not willing to have an open mind, and perceive of the future for where OpenBSD is going in the next 5-10 years, then talk like this now to help shape this future isn't going to help anything for anyone, and all I wanted to do was hopefully open some minds and ideas to a new beginning.
> 
> Remember there is nothing wrong with change.
> 
> Now all summed up into your own words:
> 
> =========================================
> 
> "OpenBSD is about getting work done, not pretty colors on the installer."
> 
> =========================================
> 
> Your thought where mine exactly. I'm talking about creating an installer that helps the user get OpenBSD installed better, gets the work done easier, and has nothing to do with pretty colors, and that was all I was trying to say before.
> 
> Nick I hope next time you please remember, not everyone's having an attitude when they talk, or write letters. Actually I was very happy when I wrote that letter to you for my deep love I share for Unix, actually you could say the letter was the sadness of my heart for seeing the shape Unix is in, and how it likes to stay more behind the times, thinking it's doing a service to itself when it's really not.
> 
> Maybe at one point in your life your family shared with you when you where young, that it takes a visionary to see and make change when others can't, and hopefully you are that person Nick, I personally don't know.
> 
> Those with vision will see one day the changes that will take place in systems like BSD. I know those changes are coming, this is the future of computing, and one day you will see them, and maybe then you will remember back to this letter in fact I know you will.
> 
> Nick sorry you took my letter wrong I just wanted to let OpenBSD know that if certain changes where made that it would see an even greater increase in it's demand and popularity grow.
> 
> Sooner, or later these changes will happen, maybe OpenBSD is not ready to embrace these changes right now, anyhow it's only about making it better.
> 
> Nick take care, thanks for your time, have a great Christmas and Happy New Year, and if I can be a friend for a second, and tell you something, relax man, don't be so critical in the New Year, you'll live better, enjoy more, and have a happier life.
> 
> Well I live in Hawaii Nick, maybe you need to come out here and have a vacation.  :)
> 
> Take care Nick
> 
> ALOHA
> Scott Richman
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nick Holland" <[email protected]>
> > To: "S.A.R." <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: OpenBSD Install Goal
> > Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:59:02 -0500
> > 
> > 
> > S.A.R. wrote:
> > > OpenBSD,
> > >
> > > To those concerned, I've been a Unix/Linux geek for around 10 years. In
> > > that time period I have used most of the free BSD systems, and all the
> > > major names in Linux.
> > >
> > > In that time OpenBSD has grown to a point. Granted with experience
> > > installing OpenBSD isn't much effort, but why should it really involve
> > > as much effort as it does?
> > 
> > So, what do you find difficult?
> > 
> > > I mean to point out, there is no reason for OpenBSD to not have a simple
> > > to use and follow ncurses install setup like FreeBSD, where the user is
> > > guided through the process, and steps to make the installation as easy
> > > and straight forward as possible.
> > 
> > It *IS* extremely straight forward and simple to get done what you want to
> > get done.  It isn't color.  It doesn't use the PC arrow keys.  Big freaking
> > deal.
> > 
> > > There seems to be even to this day some sort of mentality in believing
> > > that doing the installs on Unix systems is some sort of right of
> > > passage, the pain, and eliteness one needs to accomplish in order to
> > > uses these systems, and if someone can't get past the install then they
> > > shouldn't bother using the system.
> > 
> > OpenBSD does not have this attitude.
> > Considerable time and effort is spent by the developers to make sure the
> > system Just Works without tweaking.
> > 
> > HOWEVER, you must be at least so high [hand held about three feet off the
> > ground] to ride this ride.  OpenBSD is about getting work done, not pretty
> > colors on the installer.
> > 
> > The only part of the OpenBSD install that is "difficult" or painful is the
> > disk partitioning on some platforms.  On the other hand, after having dealt
> > with the partitioning system on a LOT of other OSs, I'll take OpenBSD's
> > lean simplicity and its trust that I might have half a brain in my head and
> > can figure out what I REALLY want to do, rather than a system which assumes
> > they know what I want to do...
> > 
> > > Just because someone can install OpenBSD for the very first time, I
> > > would hope doesn't really qualify them for much of anything other then
> > > getting the system installed and is hardly a right of passage.
> > 
> > 'zactly.
> > And if you can't follow a very straight forward set of instructions and
> > some very straight forward questions, you don't belong on this ride.  You
> > won't be able to handle OpenBSD.  You don't belong installing systems for
> > direct contact with the Internet.
> > 
> > > Perfect point in case, did you know the Gentoo developers didn't want to
> > > make installing Gentoo any simpler because of this type of thinking, and
> > > attitude, but they eventually let up and created an installer for
> > > Gentoo. This type of thinking is simply utter foolishness.
> > 
> > I don't think you will ever see OpenBSD following the Rice Boys of the Unix
> > World.
> > 
> > > I hope one day soon OpenBSD will adopt a nice ncurses setup similar to
> > > something like FreeBSD with ease to it.
> > 
> > and the two or three boot floppies?  I very much hope not.
> > I recently did a FreeBSD install.  I didn't see this "ease" you talk of.  I
> > did see colors that looked like they came out of a child's picture book,
> > but they didn't seem to help me install it as I wished.
> > 
> > > As OpenBSD grows there simply is no reason, or logic to keeping around
> > > such an archaic method of installation it now uses.
> > 
> > Bullshit.
> > 
> > If:
> > * 1 floppy installs
> > * No nonsense installs
> > * Full control installs
> > * Fast installs
> > * No Mouse Needed installs
> > * Almost identical install process on platforms ranging from Alpha to
> > Zaurus, on HW that ranges from graphically intense systems to serial consoles.
> > * Customizing the install process to one's needs, not a set of assumptions
> > 
> > is "archaic", I'm hoping OpenBSD stays "archaic" for a very long time.
> > 
> > > Please keep me informed if you will, I'd love to hear the thoughts, and
> > > ideas on this possible progress.
> > >
> > > OpenBSD is developed by volunteers, 10 years of development, don't you
> > > think with all this man power and ability, after all these years it's
> > > time to evolve a little?
> > 
> > Let's do what many major Linux distros (and Solaris) does, and totally
> > change the installer for every release.  That's evolution!  God forbid that
> > experienced users should be able to just get to work, after all, every
> > release should require them to spend hours figuring out what changed, just
> > to install the system!  After all, the functionality is irrelevant, it's
> > the bright primary colors that put a child's book to shame that matters!
> > 
> > > Remember this is an OS, and part of the process of creating one is the
> > > evolution in making it a more simpler, and productive tool.
> > 
> > With talk like that (buzzwords, bullshit, and no content), you have a great
> > career ahead in management.
> > 
> > > I remember a day, and there still seems to be one in the Unix world that
> > > thinks in order to run these systems one must spend their life tinkering
> > > with it.
> > 
> > Name examples of this "tinkering" in OpenBSD...
> > 
> > > We must rethink our ideas with these systems that they are tools to help
> > > us, not us having to work on them all the time in order to get them to
> > > do something, otherwise where is the progress and productivity in this?
> > 
> > Name examples of this "work on them all the time" in OpenBSD...
> > 
> > > I remember a day when I personally sat around playing most of the time
> > > trying to get something to work, rather then getting work done, those
> > > days must end, and the tools must finally emerge as just that, TOOLS to
> > > help us accomplish something, not sitting around trying to.
> > 
> > Why don't you spend a lot less time polishing your oratory and more time
> > learning what you are talking about...
> > 
> > You have the NERVE to mention Gentoo and then accuse OpenBSD of requiring
> > too much tinkering?
> > 
> > You are confusing a the colors and assumptions the installer makes about
> > your needs with the ease of use of the installer, and then generalizing it
> > to the OS.
> > 
> > Yes, I could probably hand an Ubuntu CD or some other Linux distros to my
> > dad, hand him a carefully selected PC, and I'd bet in a while, he'd have a
> > running system.  He'd have no idea what he did.  And he'd probably be
> > stumped about what to do next.  If I handed him an OpenBSD CD, he'd
> > probably get stuck at the disklabel part of the install.  HOWEVER, if I
> > taught him about disk partitioning, IP networking, explained to him X, SSH,
> > NTP and serial terminals, and handed him a copy of FAQ4, I think he'd have
> > no problem getting OpenBSD installed, AND he'd be well on his way to using
> > the system well and safely.  Note that only the installation details there
> > are OpenBSD specific, the rest is stuff you have to understand to use ANY
> > Unix-like system safely and effectively.  Once you ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND
> > those other issues, the installer is absolutely trivial.  Yes, OpenBSD
> > doesn't make assumptions about what you want to do, it expects you to know.
> > 
> > Yes, there is a learning curb.  I'll even grant it's a "curb", not a
> > "curve".  You will need to step up to it and lift your foot a few inches to
> > get over it.  All things considered, I'd rather that people do that, then
> > to have the system guide them through a "mystery install", where you have
> > no idea what really happened or what went wrong.
> > 
> > While I have worked with Unixes of various types (anyone remember Cromix,
> > running on a multi-Z80 system with a 68000 supervising the Z80s?), OpenBSD
> > was the first Unix I really feel that I have "mastered".  I accomplished
> > more in three days with OpenBSD than I did after YEARS of dabbling with
> > Linux (two of those days were spent fighting with the partitioning step..I
> > picked a REALLY bad first machine... :)
> > 
> > So, I kinda go the other direction, looking from the simplicity of
> > OpenBSD's install process to looking at the bloated, obscure and secretive
> > install processes of most other OSs, including FreeBSD, Linux (six install
> > CDs, and it STILL didn't load 'locate' by default?  What DID it load?),
> > Solaris 9 ("let's give 'em a web browser during the install!"), Solaris 10
> > ("Let's not give them the web browser during install"  Well, that, at
> > least, was a step towards sanity), Windows (why did it decide the only
> > Windows accessible partition on my laptop was to be called "E:"??).
> > 
> > I rather like that the first time I EVER touched the power switch or the
> > insides of a Sun system, I had OpenBSD running on it two hours after I got
> > it home.  It was the same install on the serial terminal it was on the i386
> > or mac68k or ...  The time was spent learning the MACHINE, not the OS.
> > 
> > If you have taken any offense at anything I have said, believe me, it was
> > no where near as offensive as your message was.  One does not need to use
> > strong words to be offensive.
> > 
> > Nick.
> 
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
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