Re: Trump organizing legal version of January 6th

--RG29IVP3kPeDsR4Hrwht
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Marv,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I actually think the passage you quoted, =
along with the Society of December 10, supports the opposite of your point.
Consider what actually caused the repression in that list: a state of siege=
, military commissions, police surveillance of salons, the disbanding of th=
e National Guard, and jailing without trial. The regular army carried out t=
he shootings on the boulevards on December 4, which Marx called his "drunke=
n army of law and order"=E2=80=94the state's own armed force, not a party m=
ilitia. Each of these is a tool the bourgeoisie created within the state, o=
nly to have it turned against them. This is the Bonapartist mechanism: the =
executive becomes independent from the class it serves by taking over and p=
ersonalizing the existing repressive system. This is different from the fas=
cist mechanism, which needs something the Second Empire never had. You cite=
 December 10 as a fighting force outside the state, and it is, but think ab=
out its composition and origins, which Marx discusses at length. It is recr=
uited from the scum and refuse of all classes: vagabonds, discharged soldie=
rs, jailbirds, mountebanks, and pickpockets. It is organized from above by =
the pretender as his personal force and financed as such. Marx tells us exa=
ctly what its path is: it stayed Bonaparte's private army until he could tu=
rn the public army into a Society of December 10. That is the key point for=
 our disagreement. The movement goes from the gang into the state, so the s=
tate's own armed force becomes the ruler's personal retinue.
The fascist movement works in the opposite direction and is made up of diff=
erent people. Instead of the lumpenproletariat, it mobilizes a petty bourge=
oisie in crisis, over many years, within civil society. It has its own lead=
ers, press, program, and intellectuals, forming a mass party that can fight=
 and destroy the workers' movement before taking state power. December 10 c=
ould unsettle a banquet and support a pretender, but it could not have done=
 what the SA did to the KPD and SPD between 1930 and 1933. It never needed =
to, since the June Days had already accomplished that. This distinction is =
important. Trotsky needed both categories at the same time in 1932. He coul=
d not have analyzed Papen and Schleicher if Bonapartism was just an early t=
erm for what Hitler was planning. He later argued that fascism itself turns=
 into Bonapartism once the mass movement that brought it to power is dissol=
ved or becomes bureaucratic. "Bonapartism of fascist origin" is far more th=
an a stand-in for a concept Marx never named. Engels still used the term fo=
r Bismarck in the 1870s and called it the real religion of the bourgeoisie =
because it describes a lasting structural possibility of the capitalist sta=
te, not merely a step toward something else.
As for the claim that I have removed repression from Bonapartism and reduce=
d it to just corruption, I have not done that. That reduction is your inter=
pretation, not mine.
According to Weber, patrimonialism is not just corruption. It is a form of =
rule defined by how the administrative staff is chosen and how office is he=
ld: the staff are the ruler's personal dependents, office is treated as the=
 ruler's property, and there is no separation between the ruler and the off=
ice. The main issue is the structure of the state, not just the level of co=
rruption. So, the real question about the current administration is not whe=
ther favors are done for donors=E2=80=94of course they are, and you are rig=
ht that every bourgeois government does this. The real question is whether =
the system keeps its impersonal, rule-based nature that allows it to organi=
ze the general interest of capital over the interests of its parts. Loyalty=
 oaths for civil servants, removing inspectors general, using prosecution a=
nd pardon as personal tools, and filling agencies with clients instead of p=
rofessionals are not just more favoritism. They show a shift from one way o=
f recruiting and commanding to another. This is a structural argument, and =
it can be tested in a way that "more extreme and public" cannot.
Your argument is about quantity, while mine is about a qualitative differen=
ce: everyone does this, but he does it more openly. The key issue in Marxis=
t state theory is when quantity turns into quality. Also, the idea of patri=
monialism is already present in Marx, not something I added. The parasitic =
system with its half-million officeholders; the state treasury as a prize t=
hat must be constantly distributed to keep December 10 going; and Bonaparte=
's need to appear as a benefactor to all classes while taking from one to g=
ive to another=E2=80=94this is patrimonial logic described in those terms, =
forty years before Weber gave it a name.
You make a strong point here, and this is where I would rather focus the di=
scussion. The question of fascism in the United States is not settled by wh=
at I've said so far, and it depends on the specific criteria I've outlined.=
 Is there a mobilized mass base forming as an independent fighting force an=
d merging with the state? The pardoned January 6 defendants, the militia en=
vironment, and especially the rapid growth of an armed federal deportation =
force staffed by ideological recruits are important to watch. These develop=
ments may be closer to Marx's sequence than to Germany's: not a party milit=
ia taken over by the state, but the state's own repressive system being exp=
anded and customized into something like a Society of December 10. This is =
the real danger we need to name clearly, and we risk losing the right conce=
pt if we call every reactionary consolidation "fascism" and fail to identif=
y the one that is actually emerging.
In Comradeship,
--
Tony


-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group.
View/Reply Online (#42753): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/42753
Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/120549500/6024700
-=3D-=3D-
POSTING RULES & NOTES
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
#4 Do not exceed five posts a day.
-=3D-=3D-
Group Owner: [email protected]
Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/10173629/6024700/1441833971=
/xyzzy [[email protected]]
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-



--RG29IVP3kPeDsR4Hrwht
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>Marv,</span></div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I actually think the passage you quo=
ted, along with the Society of December 10, supports the opposite of your p=
oint.</span></div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>Consider what actually caused the repression in that list: a state of =
siege, military commissions, police surveillance of salons, the disbanding =
of the National Guard, and jailing without trial. The regular army carried =
out the shootings on the boulevards on December 4, which Marx called his "d=
runken army of law and order"&mdash;the state's own armed force, not a part=
y militia. Each of these is a tool the bourgeoisie created within the state=
, only to have it turned against them. This is the Bonapartist mechanism: t=
he executive becomes independent from the class it serves by taking over an=
d personalizing the existing repressive system. This is different from the =
fascist mechanism, which needs something the Second Empire never had. You c=
ite December 10 as a fighting force outside the state, and it is, but think=
 about its composition and origins, which Marx discusses at length. It is r=
ecruited from the scum and refuse of all classes: vagabonds, discharged sol=
diers, jailbirds, mountebanks, and pickpockets. It is organized </span><spa=
n style=3D"font-style: italic;">from above</span><span> by the pretender as=
 his personal force and financed as such. Marx tells us exactly what its pa=
th is: it stayed Bonaparte's private army until he could turn the public ar=
my into a Society of December 10. That is the key point for our disagreemen=
t. The movement goes from the gang </span><span style=3D"font-style: italic=
;">into</span><span> the state, so the state's own armed force becomes the =
ruler's personal retinue.</span></div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>The fascist movement works in the opposite direction and is made up of=
 different people. Instead of the lumpenproletariat, it mobilizes a petty b=
ourgeoisie in crisis, over many years, within civil society. It has its own=
 leaders, press, program, and intellectuals, forming a mass party that can =
fight and destroy the workers' movement </span><span style=3D"font-style: i=
talic;">before</span><span> taking state power. December 10 could unsettle =
a banquet and support a pretender, but it could not have done what the SA d=
id to the KPD and SPD between 1930 and 1933. It never needed to, since the =
June Days had already accomplished that. This distinction is important. Tro=
tsky needed both categories at the same time in 1932. He could not have ana=
lyzed Papen and Schleicher if Bonapartism was just an early term for what H=
itler was planning. He later argued that fascism itself turns into Bonapart=
ism once the mass movement that brought it to power is dissolved or becomes=
 bureaucratic. "Bonapartism of fascist origin" is far more than a stand-in =
for a concept Marx never named. Engels still used the term for Bismarck in =
the 1870s and called it the real religion of the bourgeoisie because it des=
cribes a lasting structural possibility of the capitalist state, not merely=
 a step toward something else.</span></div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>As for the claim that I have removed repression from Bonapartism and r=
educed it to just corruption, I have not done that. That reduction is your =
interpretation, not mine.</span></div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>According to Weber, patrimonialism is not just corruption. It is a for=
m of rule defined by how the administrative staff is chosen and how office =
is held: the staff are the ruler's personal dependents, office is treated a=
s the ruler's property, and there is no separation between the ruler and th=
e office. The main issue is the structure of the state, not just the level =
of corruption. So, the real question about the current administration is no=
t whether favors are done for donors&mdash;of course they are, and you are =
right that every bourgeois government does this. The real question is wheth=
er the system keeps its impersonal, rule-based nature that allows it to org=
anize the general interest of capital over the interests of its parts. Loya=
lty oaths for civil servants, removing inspectors general, using prosecutio=
n and pardon as personal tools, and filling agencies with clients instead o=
f professionals are not just more favoritism. They show a shift from one wa=
y of recruiting and commanding to another. This is a structural argument, a=
nd it can be tested in a way that "more extreme and public" cannot.</span><=
/div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>Your argument is about quantity, while mine is about a qualitative dif=
ference: everyone does this, but he does it more openly. The key issue in M=
arxist state theory is when quantity turns into quality. Also, the idea of =
patrimonialism is already present in Marx, not something I added. The paras=
itic system with its half-million officeholders; the state treasury as a pr=
ize that must be constantly distributed to keep December 10 going; and Bona=
parte's need to appear as a benefactor to all classes while taking from one=
 to give to another&mdash;this is patrimonial logic described in those term=
s, forty years before Weber gave it a name.</span></div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>You make a strong point here, and this is where I would rather focus t=
he discussion. The question of fascism in the United States is not settled =
by what I've said so far, and it depends on the specific criteria I've outl=
ined. Is there a mobilized mass base forming as an independent fighting for=
ce and merging with the state? The pardoned January 6 defendants, the milit=
ia environment, and especially the rapid growth of an armed federal deporta=
tion force staffed by ideological recruits are important to watch. These de=
velopments may be closer to Marx's sequence than to Germany's: not a party =
militia taken over by the state, but the state's own repressive system bein=
g expanded and customized into something like a Society of December 10. Thi=
s is the real danger we need to name clearly, and we risk losing the right =
concept if we call every reactionary consolidation "fascism" and fail to id=
entify the one that is actually emerging.</span></div>
<div style=3D"text-align: left; margin-top: 0.5em; margin-bottom: 0.5em;"><=
span>In Comradeship,&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Tony</div>


<div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div>

<hr>


Groups.io Links:<p>


 =20
    You receive all messages sent to this group.
 =20
 =20


<p>
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/42753">Vi=
ew/Reply Online (#42753)</a> |


  <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DRe:%20Re=
%3A%20%5Bmarxmail%5D%20Trump%20organizing%20legal%20version%20of%20January%=
206th">Reply to Group</a>
 =20
    | <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=
=3DPrivate:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5Bmarxmail%5D%20Trump%20organizing%20legal%20v=
ersion%20of%20January%206th">Reply to Sender</a>
 =20

|

  <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.io/mt/120549500/6024700">Mute=
 This Topic</a>


| <a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/marxmail/post">New Topic</a>

<br>


<hr style=3D"width:25%;margin-right:100%">POSTING RULES &amp; NOTES<br />
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.<br />
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly &amp; permanently archived.<br />
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.<br />
#4 Do not exceed five posts a day.<hr style=3D"width:25%;margin-right:100%"=
>

<a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/marxmail/editsub/6024700">Your Subscription<=
/a> |
<a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Contact Group Owner</a> |

<a href=3D"https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/10173629/6024700/1441833971/x=
yzzy">Unsubscribe</a>

 [[email protected]]<br>
<div width=3D"1" style=3D"color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div>


--RG29IVP3kPeDsR4Hrwht--