Re: Profit and Value, was: Re(2): [ox-en] extrinsic motivation = coercion

But still, despite Michel's much appreciated view on the human psyche
(the layers and all that), the theories that we construct need to work
with the fact that people are inclined to do very irrational things. I
feel that idealistic, good meaning theories, including socialism, and
the commons, don't achieve that.

So we need to work with that irrationality, which sometimes leads to
things like profit, scarcity enforcing currency, etc, but a good
model/theory should not amplify our flawed tendencies, just recognize
them and work with them. That's the point I wanted to make, not the
human psyche itself, however it may be constructed, and no one really
knows, even though some views are more enlightened than others.

On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:56 PM, marc fawzi <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, Michel actually corrected my thinking with what I feel is an
> enlightening response, so re-posting here:
>
>
> from    Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>
> to      marc fawzi <[email protected]>
>
> Hi Marc,
>
> This is a very complex subject, but I think your dichotomy is too
> simplistic, i.e. irrational natural behaviour vs. rational human
> civilizational behaviour ...
>
> Indeed much that is 'evil' in us, does not come from the animal part,
> but from the human, and how it activily represses some 'naturality'
> (of course talking like this is in itself misleading, since the human
> is of course also natural).
>
> So the best ways of seeing it is are for me still the integrative
> approaches, seeing how different levels of psychic complexitity
> develop on top of the other, each with a potential to repress in
> pathological ways, remnants of the earlier layers.
>
> This is why any human that wishes to grow, must at some point
> undertake a regression in the service of the ego in order to become
> more fully aware of these archaic sediments, and how they influence
> us.
>
> I think  your 'rational' model also fails to see the transrational
> requirements, which are better developed in the East, i.e. not just to
> master the irrational with the so-called rational mind (the western
> enligthenment), but also also to master the so-called rational mind,
> from a trans-rational, trans-mental (i.e. it looks at the mind itself,
> from the wordless  'witness' position) (i.e. the eastern
> enligthenment)
>
> I'm not in favour of radical eastern enlightenment per se (in fact,
> I'm opposed to it), but rather for a balanced 'householder'
> spirituality that is embodied in real life and social engagement, and
> recognizes both archaic, rational, and transrational aspects of our
> selves.
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:10 PM, marc fawzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Personally, I think it's a subjective issue.
>>
>> Let me explain my view.
>>
>> I happen to believe that there are two parts to our psyche: the
>> rational part and the ancient animal or irrational part (greed,
>> irrational pleasures, temptation, and most importantly 'fear', all
>> reside there, i.e. our weaknesses)
>>
>> Obviously, the purpose of civilization is to tame or minimize or even
>> eliminate irrational behavior but the irrational part in us is not as
>> conditionable as the rational part, which is why war, crime and
>> injustice continue to this day.
>>
>> According to latest game theory research, rational behavior in nature
>> demands both egalitarian type cooperation as well as competition, not
>> just competition or cooperation in the context of competition.
>>
>> However, when it comes to the irrational part, where fear reigns
>> supreme (and is the root cause of our weakness), we don't really
>> follow evolutionary game theory as much as we should. We do follow it
>> when we are feeling courage and when we are resourced (psychologically
>> and physically) but when weakness creeps up (due to irrational fear of
>> something including some of the deepest existential issues) we enter
>> into a state of temporary irrationality, out of weakness, and with
>> some people it becomes a homeostasis, i.e. stuck in fear.
>>
>> That is why the capitalist systems works (whereas socialist systems
>> have failed thus far) even when it promotes war, crime and injustice.
>> It feeds on our weakness. We must resist it, but we cannot defeat it
>> unless we rise above our weakness. At this time seeing how people are
>> today the hope I have in my own work is to understand fear and the
>> process of gaining strength and enable a system that allows people to
>> gain courage and abandon fear, but that is akin to asking someone to
>> change their homeostasis to a new one. It's an incredibly difficult
>> process and there are entire libraries of books written about the
>> subject (e.g. spiritual books, religions, psychology books, self help
>> books, etc)
>>
>> There has to be a better way, but it can be overlooking the fact that
>> we are, as a civilization, still predominantly driven by fear.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Patrick Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:03 PM, marc fawzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> in a true equilibrium anyone who wishes to get X number or amount of some good or service
>>>> should be able to do so at the median cost of that good or service + a fixed profit 'margin'
>>>
>>> Why do you and Franz say there *must* there be a profit 'margin'?
>>>
>>> If you say "as a return for the investors", then I ask:
>>>
>>> But what if the investors (and therefore owners) are the only
>>> consumers?  For in that case, there would be no profit ... but does
>>> imply there can be no production when the owner of an apple tree is
>>> the sole consumer (eats all the apples himself)?
>>>
>>> Notice the owner(s) are not required to be the worker(s) for those
>>> Means of Production.
>>>
>>> If a quadriplegic apple tree owner hired some workers to pick apples
>>> with money/tokens he earned by giving talks, he would pay those costs
>>> as Wages, but still would not pay profit, for who would he pay it to?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Patrick
>>> _________________________________
>>> Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
>>> Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
>>> Contact: [email protected]
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Marc Fawzi
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Marc Fawzi
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
>



-- 

Marc Fawzi
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Fawzi/605919256
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/marcfawzi
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: [email protected]