Re: Profit and Value, was: Re(2): [ox-en] extrinsic motivation = coercion

<<
Its impossible to have an economic system at all (nor life) in thermodynamic
equilibrium
>>

I think everyone is talking about demand supply equilibrium not
thermodynamic equilibrium!!!  Maybe it's easy to confuse if one is
talking about thermoeconomics but you're stating the obvious here in
saying there is NO EXCHANGE, NO MOVEMENT, NO LIFE when the economy is
in a thermodynamic equilibrium, i.e. NO FLOW = NO LIFE, so I agree but
believe everyone is talking about demand-supply

But you can have demand-supply equilibrium for abundant goods/services
if everyone who wants to have a given good/service can have it at cost
(+ fixed profit margin so that there is not only sustainability but
also possibility, assuming profit is spent exploring new inventions
etc)

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:12 AM, Diego Saravia <[email protected]> wrote:
> [Converted from multipart/alternative]
>
> [1 text/plain]
> 2009/5/6 Stefan Seefeld <[email protected]>
>
>> Smári McCarthy wrote:
>>
>>> Profit != benefit. All work and produce thereof is, we can imagine, in
>>> some way beneficial. However, profit comes only when the value of the
>>> product is higher than the cost of production. If I try to profit from
>>> you, I am trying to get from you more than what I am offering is worth.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The value of what you are offering is contextual. It is worth something to
>> you, something different to someone else. There is no one global measure
>> that can be applied.
>
>
> mmm, in marxian terms, yes. you can measure value by work used to produce it
>
> and in value terms (not price) you always win, because there is no negative
> work
>
> value is measured in time units.
>
> so,  you have a growing economy which always generate value and distribute
> it
>
> non equilibrium at all.
>
> value is exactly the cost of production in terms of value :) (i am not
> speaking about prices or money profit)
>
>
>
>>  In a free market, price theory says (which is, as Diego correctly points
>>> out, an equilibrium theory, but equilibriums occur naturally in the
>>> absence of external "coercive" influence), the ability of any player to
>>> profit from another is decreased by the ability of third parties to
>>> compete. If the market is free, competition (or, better, cooperation) is
>>> on equal ground, and profit is driven to zero.
>>
>>
>
> you can have equilibrium of several forces too
>
> but in normal growing economy, you always adds value.
>
> each minute
>
> population increases
>
> capital increases faster
>
>
> This in itself is already a myth. In a true equilibrium (if that would
>> exist) there wouldn't be any exchange.
>
>
> you could have equilibrium if you consume the same you produce, nor capital
> accumulation, nor population grow, you can have exchange (see about
> thermodinamical equilibrium below)
>
> you can have profits, exploitation and rent under that equilibrium as marx
> showed, but thats another history.
> In that system if you do not have profits yo do not have expoitation, nor
> rent
>
> very boring economy
>
>
>>
>> Of course, there is no equilibrium. We are living in a world of massive
>> consumption, producing a lot of waste.
>> So trying equilibrium-based theories is doomed to fail.
>
>
> ok, thats another stuff, economic equilibrium do not mean "thermal"
> equilibrium, or "chemical equilibrium"
>
> in physiscal or thermodynamics  terms an "economy in equilibrium" is not an
> equilibrium system but a stable system
>
>  so we have diferent meaning for the word equilibrium in thermodynamics and
> economics
>
> Its impossible to have an economic system at all (nor life) in thermodynamic
> equilibrium
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Diego Saravia
> [email protected]
> NO FUNCIONA->dsa-AySywPH+/[email protected]
>
>
> [2 text/html]
> _________________________________
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