RE: defining laws in isolation or 'no other force acting'
<hibbsa-/[email protected]> 06 Jan 2014 04:23:40 -0800
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
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| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
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<p>---In [email protected], <david.deutsch@...> wrote:<br>
<br>
> On 15 Dec 2013, at 04:48, hibbsa@... mailto:hibbsa@... wrote:<br>
> <br>
>> Hi DD, hope you are well, Quoting from your CT paper<br>
>> "2.2 Constructor-independent laws of physics<br>
>> In physics, too, most laws are about substrates only: they hold for all possible constructors. But the prevailing conception disguises that. For example, one way of formulating a conservation law in the prevailing conception is that for every isolated physical system S, a certain quantity Q(S) never changes. But since an isolated system never deviates from a particular trajectory, almost all its attributes (namely, all deviations from that trajectory) remain unchanged, not just conserved quantities. For instance, the total energy of the atoms of an isolated crystal remains unchanged, but so does their arrangement, and only the former invariance is due to a conservation law. In constructor-theoretic terms, the arrangement could be changed by a constructor while the energy could not
. More generally, what makes the attributes that we call "conserved quantities" significant is not that they cannot change when a system is isolated, but that they cannot be changed, whether or not the system is isolated, without depleting some external resource."<br>
>><br>
>> Reading this I'm curious, DD, why in your judgement, assumptions about isolation, or 'no other forces acting' and so on, tend to be used when defining laws?<br>
><br>
> They are used when the laws are about isolated systems. We can't choose what the laws we discover are going to say.<br>
><br>
> I think it's because that is the simplest, by far clearest, way to be very clear what the law actually is. It allows a statement like this "for any isolated physical system S, a certain quantity Q(s) remains constant" instead of much longer statements that have to enail that energy or whatever, cannot be created or destroyed...but it can seem to be but what's going on there is energy is being transported from somewhere else....<br>
><br>
> As in Newton's laws of motion with assumptions about no other force acting...'. He wasn't saying that was the only time the law was true. I appreciate this is a very marginal aspect of your CT work, but I do think you are operating a misunderstanding here and the other instances like perpetual motion etc.<br>
><br>
> Or perhaps I am....I shall look out for what you have to say<br>
><br>
> In that sense, the laws of constructor theory *are* about isolated systems: the substrate plus constructor.<br>
<br>
The isolated system doubles as a better way to make clear there aren't other influences acting. Certainly there are applications where the boundary has independent value....say in how the major problems of mechanical engineering were solved (which were fundamental in nature)<br>
<br>
But, take Newton's laws of motion. Say, an object will remain at rest or continue the way its going at constant velocity, WHEN no other forces are acting. <br>
<br>
Does that say that when forces are acting, inertia and the other laws aren't also acting? No one would say that. Newton uses forces acting and that law in combination to get orbital behaviour, show conservation of momentum hence explain elliptical orbit and so on. <br>
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color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->
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