Re: Target: Tegmark Mathematical Universe
smitra-RSh1/+X/PmFmR6Xm/[email protected] Thu, 27 Mar 2014 16:22:31 +0100
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--1Ux2GSWuAP95e9U3XOfRRZ3OegDdb6fS6Tp-q7h Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Citeren Lee Corbin <[email protected]>: > Smitra wrote > >> [Lee wrote] >> > Do you consider it *possible* for brain science >> > to make such tremendous advances in the next >> > centuries that uploading a worm, an insect, or >> > a mammal might occur? >> > >> > If it does become possible, then this question >> > will become pertinent: is uploading a pet that >> > is painfully dying of cancer moral? >> >> Yes, this [uploading] should pose no problems. I would >> agree that you can have a virtual pet that is suffering. >> You can even consider a hypothetical analogue computer >> that operates using wheels and gears. Even such a >> machine can feel pain... >> >> Now, we must also be prepared to question any notions of morality we >> have. If all possible universes exist anyway then the suffering kitten >> should also exist even if we don't simulate it. The only thing that >> changes due to the simulation is that we can see what is going on in >> that universe. > > But it seems to me that what you have written could > be used to justify any cruel action. If a psychopath takes > you to his basement and shows you a set of teenage > girls he's kidnapped and is torturing, and asks your opinion, > to your suggestion that his actions are making the universe > a worse place, he might retort that since they're already > suffering somewhere in the multiverse--that indeed > the suffering girls exist even if he were to discontinue > his hobby, then "the only thing that is different due to > his actions or a simulation is that we can see what is > going on". Then he suggests that he'll simply show no > more people his basement. > > Yes, while everything occurs, it doesn't occur in equal > measure in equal density across the multiverse. We > can (from the frog perspective) try to encourage that > which is good, and avoid actions that increase the > measure of what is bad. Doesn't that make more > persuasive the argument that some programs should > not be run? > > Lee > I do agree that the probabilities are (in general) not equal. However, we are not external agents that can change the multiverse, we are also part of the multiverse. So, whatever we choose to do would in fact be a choice that was going to be made anyway while alternative choices also exist in the multiverse. So, we're led to the idea that any choice we make, simply has the effect of us moving toward certain sectors of the multiverse. Now, you could say that after you make a choice, you are not the same person as who you were before, and each choice defines a (slightly) different person. A cruel version of me has a low measure because of the laws of physics, which presumably will imply that with a high probability I will have a sense of morality that stands in the way of me making bad choices. Saibal --1Ux2GSWuAP95e9U3XOfRRZ3OegDdb6fS6Tp-q7h Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>Citeren Lee Corbin <[email protected]>:<br> <br> > Smitra wrote<br> ><br> >> [Lee wrote]<br> >> > Do you consider it *possible* for brain science<br> >> > to make such tremendous advances in the next<br> >> > centuries that uploading a worm, an insect, or<br> >> > a mammal might occur?<br> >> ><br> >> > If it does become possible, then this question<br> >> > will become pertinent: is uploading a pet that<br> >> > is painfully dying of cancer moral?<br> >><br> >> Yes, this [uploading] should pose no problems. I would<br> >> agree that you can have a virtual pet that is suffering.<br> >> You can even consider a hypothetical analogue computer<br> >> that operates using wheels and gears. Even such a<br> >> machine can feel pain...<br> >><br> >> Now, we must also be prepared to question any notions of morality we<br> >> have. If all possible universes exist anyway then the suffering kitten<br> >> should also exist even if we don't simulate it. The only thing that<br> >> changes due to the simulation is that we can see what is going on in<br> >> that universe.<br> ><br> > But it seems to me that what you have written could<br> > be used to justify any cruel action. If a psychopath takes<br> > you to his basement and shows you a set of teenage<br> > girls he's kidnapped and is torturing, and asks your opinion,<br> > to your suggestion that his actions are making the universe<br> > a worse place, he might retort that since they're already<br> > suffering somewhere in the multiverse--that indeed<br> > the suffering girls exist even if he were to discontinue<br> > his hobby, then "the only thing that is different due to<br> > his actions or a simulation is that we can see what is<br> > going on". Then he suggests that he'll simply show no<br> > more people his basement.<br> ><br> > Yes, while everything occurs, it doesn't occur in equal<br> > measure in equal density across the multiverse. We<br> > can (from the frog perspective) try to encourage that<br> > which is good, and avoid actions that increase the<br> > measure of what is bad. Doesn't that make more<br> > persuasive the argument that some programs should<br> > not be run?<br> ><br> > Lee<br> ><br> <br> I do agree that the probabilities are (in general) not equal. However, <br> we are not external agents that can change the multiverse, we are also <br> part of the multiverse. So, whatever we choose to do would in fact be a <br> choice that was going to be made anyway while alternative choices also <br> exist in the multiverse.<br> <br> So, we're led to the idea that any choice we make, simply has the <br> effect of us moving toward certain sectors of the multiverse. Now, you <br> could say that after you make a choice, you are not the same person as <br> who you were before, and each choice defines a (slightly) different <br> person. A cruel version of me has a low measure because of the laws of <br> physics, which presumably will imply that with a high probability I <br> will have a sense of morality that stands in the way of me making bad <br> choices.<br> <br> Saibal<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div style="clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=4px style="margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 10px;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bold; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA " > <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD" href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/messages/25649;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbW0xNWRnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjQ5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM5NTk0MzkwNA--?act=reply&messageNum=25649">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="mailto:smitra-RSh1/+X/PmFmR6Xm/[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20Target%3A%20Tegmark%20Mathematical%20Universe" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; "> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20Target%3A%20Tegmark%20Mathematical%20Universe" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJlODQ2bHJiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM5NTk0MzkwNA--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a> </td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #2D50FD; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " > <a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/topics/25631;_ylc=X3oDMTM2NDVrajFxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NjQ5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM5NTk0MzkwNAR0cGNJZAMyNTYzMQ--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (18) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; "><a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYnU4azRpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM5NTk0MzkwNA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcDFjNGs4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzk1OTQzOTA0" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/ru/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a> <div style="color: #747575; float: right;"> • <a href="https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html" style="text-decoration: none;">Privacy</a> • <a href="mailto:Fabric-of-Reality-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a> </div> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;"> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <div id="ygrp-reco"> </div> <!-- End Recommendations --> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1888600/grpspId=1705020585/msgId=25649/stime=1395943904" width="1" height="1"> <br> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </body> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <head> <style type="text/css"> <!-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd { margin: 10px 0px; font-weight: 700; font-size: 78%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad { margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 0 0; } #actions { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; padding: 10px 0; } #activity { background-color: #e0ecee; float: left; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; padding: 10px; } #activity span { font-weight: 700; } #activity span:first-child { text-transform: uppercase; } #activity span a { color: #5085b6; text-decoration: none; } #activity span span { color: #ff7900; } #activity span .underline { text-decoration: underline; } .attach { clear: both; display: table; font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; padding: 10px 0; width: 400px; } .attach div a { text-decoration: none; } .attach img { border: none; padding-right: 5px; } .attach label { display: block; margin-bottom: 5px; } .attach label a { text-decoration: none; } blockquote { margin: 0 0 0 4px; } .bold { font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; font-weight: 700; } .bold a { text-decoration: none; } dd.last p a { font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span { margin-right: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span.yshortcuts { margin-right: 0; } div.attach-table div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table { width: 400px; } div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; font-weight: normal; } .green { color: #628c2a; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } o { font-size: 0; } #photos div { float: left; width: 72px; } #photos div div { border: 1px solid #666666; height: 62px; overflow: hidden; width: 62px; } #photos div label { color: #666666; font-size: 10px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; width: 64px; } #reco-category { font-size: 77%; } #reco-desc { font-size: 77%; } .replbq { margin: 4px; } #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/ margin-right: 2px; padding-right: 5px; } #ygrp-mlmsg { font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif; *font-size: small; *font: x-small; } #ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size: inherit; font: 100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea { font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; } #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code { font:115% monospace; *font-size:100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height: 1.22em; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo { padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-msg p a { font-family: Verdana; } #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span { color: #1E66AE; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco #reco-head { color: #ff7900; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a { font-size: 130%; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li { font-size: 77%; list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul { margin: 0; padding: 0 0 0 8px; } #ygrp-text { font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p { margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-text tt { font-size: 120%; } #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right: none !important; } --> </style> </head> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </html> <!-- end group email --> --1Ux2GSWuAP95e9U3XOfRRZ3OegDdb6fS6Tp-q7h--