Re: Wormholes have a branching structure
"'Daniel L. Needles' [email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality]" <[email protected]> Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:10:28 -0800
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--hLrJxFYBDEoCMxHoicL6wSfqkSORazhHIWaFm8R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Some ways to attack the problem is to challenge assumptions of the day. > Just so we're clear, would you describe the problem? My understanding of the problem has changed so just want to make sure we're on the same page. Sorry that was cryptic - general logic issues and observation issues when dealing with time travel. >>This sounds like you are saying that the objective world depends on our subjective experiences. I think it is independent from them. Agree? >>It's true that our perspective on the world determines how we see the world. >>For what it's worth, I don't like Descartes. He was looking for certainty, but we now know nothing is beyond doubt. Agreed on Descartes' being narrow-minded - but give him a bit of a break. Basically mathematics came to a screeching halt when the Romans decided their numbering system was different than the Greeks. Ever tried to multiply in Roman numerals?: How about represent "0" or any negative number. 8-) Anyway, within a short 200 hundred years after resurrecting the "better" language for mathematics which was more than 1,500 year after things stopped, calculus was born. So Descartes', along with others at the time, were quite crippled by the past. What saved him a bit was the printing press which had a similar affect to what the Internet is doing today. That said, as with most things not everything he said is bad. There are shades of insight. The most important is breaking apart the observer and understanding the interactions. In fact this is no longer done by science to its detriment. It is like a weird 500 year truce between Religion and Science that Science won't go there. Anyway, there are four layers each one a higher level of abstraction from the source which for each of us individually is subjective time. This is important because in order to understand time travel you need to first understand the "thing" that is doing the traveling and how it behaves within the stratum time (and space) These are the four "orders": 1. Passage of time of the observer. This is if you were completely unaware or sensing. The one thing that would hold is time passes. You might not be conscious or aware but time passing happens. 2. Subjective experience of loosely: sensation, thought, feeling. (Being a philosopher aka thought centric - Descartes' only recognized the root as his "religion" aka philosophy but the same can be applied to the other two channels of subjective experience.) The idea is no one can question that you are not having the "values" of these: sensations, thoughts, feeling. Now the values aka shape might be wrong and not match actual reality. But you are having them. No one can take that away. (Actually there is a disorder known to do this where people taste purple, feel triangles, etc.) This translates to location again. The shape you are experiencing is at a location in space time. The soul in some sense is the fabric, the location itself. 3. Immediate (aka now) objective conclusions derived from the raw interactions 4. Higher abstractions based on a collection of these objective conclusions (with the assumption that the objective source whether memory, book, recording, etc is not corrupt.) One way to show these 4 is to draw two axis: Observer and Observed. The ends of each axis is Physical and Abstract. I find this is easier understood if "shown" both the Lathe of Heaven and Matrix shows aspects of this order of reality from an experience perspective. The first two insights are the most important. What Descartes' shown in the nature of the observer (and space-time in general) is that shape and the subjective experience to that shape can be duplicated. But the location cannot. That is, the observer and the derived subjective experience mirrors how dimensions work. You can duplicate any shape: electron, person, fear, etc across the fabric of reality. Actually from second to second that is what is happening with each one of us. Our present self is very similar to the past self like a continuous, non breaking line drawn across the multiverse. So time travel may be simply duplicating shapes. Of course that causes philosophical problems with the nature of the soul as you time traveled but the person also remains in their original location. But this does match the reality of subjective experience. Think about it. Sure you can tap into memories or look at videos but are you really feeling at that past location in space time? No you are recreating the shapes and feeling them in the present location of space-time. Subjectively you are completely divorced from your past self. Thinking your past self is the same as your current self is an illusion at a subjective level. Because of the continuity of dimensions your present self is connected objectively with objective structures such as scars, memories, video tapes you made, etc. However you are completely divorced subjectively from this past person. Hopefully you can see how this changes the perspective on what time travel is and means. This brings up the other aspect of dimension. For every shape on the dimension there is a unique location. Shapes can be duplicated, but locations cannot. Now you might not be able to know that location due to the fact you only can measure the shapes on the fabric, not the location. Location is not coded into the fabric in some way. Even if it was it would be the fact that something about the "shape" of the fabric relays location. The idea of either was always just another shape or content in space, not something intrinsic about location itself. As such an observer of the same size and shape at the same location does not happen. (Though we might see later that different sizes and shapes similar to wave forms can be superimposed on one another and create subjective observers.) This also gets a bit interesting in the definition of "Soul". That is, we can only sense, think, feel in a single location. We remember doing the same thing seconds ago but this is through physical observed constructs such as memory, not from subjectively living both locations of time. This opens up a window to what time travel means. If you duplicate atom for atom in a different location an exact duplicate of yourself - you would think you time and space traveled. However there would be two entities sensing, thinking and feeling the same thing. Oddly enough the sequential frames of a person's lifetime can be thought of the same way. The continuity in space-time which keeps the shape evolving makes us think that subjectively these are the same but really if you do this mind experiment and think about it from a purely subjective sense they are independent - just very similar in shape and they interact with the environment morphing the shape in a way to create memories and other abstract structures that makes the observer feel they are 100% the same as the observer just a second prior. Hopefully that is a bit clearer. It is Descartes' analysis of the observer that is important, not his conclusions per se. If you want to make an observer time travel a massive update of what the observer is needs to occur as science due to its history runs away from this topic when it is brought up. > As such, physics is devoid of investigation of the nature of the observer beyond defining it as a "clock" . > Two assumptions commonly made about the observer: > 1. The observer is substance based. However, a ti[d]al wave which has consistent structure but no consistent substance has its own "clock" which differs slightly from the water molecules flowing through it. >Sounds interesting but I'm not crystal clear on what you're saying. Can you clarify? So this supports the idea that structure/shape defines the "value" of the subjective experience at the location in space time. Do this thought experiment: 1. Imagine a tsunami. 2. Since fluid doesn't compress the "Shape" of the wave is traveling, not the substance in the wave. That is water piles up and forms a bulge. Next the water falls and flows forward, which creates another bulge. In reality the water within the wave just made a circle. The energy was the only thing transfered. 3. Use relativity to create clocks for both the shape of the wave, and a circling atom within the wave. Since the water moves relative to the wave the clocks will run slower relative to the other from their perspective. When the wave finally crashes on the beach and stops relative to the water the clock on the wave will have run less time than the individual atoms flowing through it. By physic's incredibly feeble definition of an observer, you can call the wave, though without consistent substance, an observer. . > 2. The observer is the same observer past, present, future. You cannot experience two time frames directly at once. >Can two parts of your body be in different time frames, like when moving through a wormhole into the past/future? The soul is subjectively divorced into segments the size of Plancks constant. > Only through reexperiencing patterns in the present (i.e. memories, videos, etc) can it be referenced at all. So subjectively the past instance of yourself is >>no more related to the present instance of yourself than you are to a stranger. It is only the relatively same "shape" of structure that makes the two instances of observer act and coordinate. >> >>Yes, I agree that past versions of yourself are different people. Ah good! So then understand the "easy" time travel is just the duplication and destruction of the original shape on the fabric of space time. That said, the original "shape" might get a bit bummed about being destroyed. Moving only in time while space moves around you just cleanly gets rid of the original (hence why there is no "myspace" in the relativistic equation: MyTime ^^2 = YourSpace ^^ 2 + YourTime ^^2) But then you are limited by the speed of light. Not so if you just duplicate a shape - although you have to muck with quantum mechanics and entanglement to transfer info instantly. In some ways you view relativity as the science of the observed while quantum mechanics is the science of splitting the observer (aka under size Plancks constant.) That is why when you plug one into the other time cancels out. > The one other assumption to look at is the use of mathematic operators or verbs within the multiverse you are describing. As an observer within the fabric you are "burning time" within the fabric you are examining. That is any "verb" or mathematical operation that requires time when describing moving in the multivese is suspect. If you step outside time, it is all static. >>Yes, the multiverse exists forever and all at once. Every space-time slice through the multiverse is eternal. Yep! > The moment you put anything in motion you are introducing a new time line which also can be stepped outside to observe. So any movement within the multiverse is an illusion as that can only occur as a blurring of the fabric creating the illusion of passing time and animating the fabric from within Planck's constant area of the space-time multiverse fabric. >I didn't understand the part about Planck's Constant but I think I get your point. Basically it's the idea that time flows and things move is an illusion arising from our perspective as observers within the multiverse. >>OK, how do these points relate to the problem of whether you would survive past/future-directed time travel through the wormhole? Ah yes... well the classic answer here - it depends. You can do either. 1. The traditional method is for the observer to flow forward in time while everything around them either regresses or speeds forward in time. (If the observer travelled back in time, it truly would be just that - the past. You are simply looking at the observer as they were. What you want is to move scars, memories, and other shape constructs to another area of space time. So that gets a bit tricky. 2. The cheater way is to simply duplicate the shape where ever you want - scars, memories, and all. Then toast the original. 8-) Not nice but oh well. Thanks, http://www.nmsguru.com/DanNeedles.jpg DANIEL L. NEEDLES Principal Consultant <http://www.nmsguru.com> NMSGuru, Inc. <skype:danielneedles> 512.627.6694 <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] <http://bit.ly/1amoW7Z> http://www.nmsguru.com/TerminalConnectionBanner.png --hLrJxFYBDEoCMxHoicL6wSfqkSORazhHIWaFm8R Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p>> Some ways to attack the problem is to challenge assumptions of the day. <br> <br> > Just so we're clear, would you describe the problem? My understanding of<br> the problem has changed so just want to make sure we're on the same page. <br> <br> Sorry that was cryptic - general logic issues and observation issues when<br> dealing with time travel.<br> <br> >>This sounds like you are saying that the objective world depends on our<br> subjective experiences. I think it is independent from them. Agree? <br> <br> >>It's true that our perspective on the world determines how we see the<br> world. <br> >>For what it's worth, I don't like Descartes. He was looking for certainty,<br> but we now know nothing is beyond doubt.<br> <br> Agreed on Descartes' being narrow-minded - but give him a bit of a break.<br> Basically mathematics came to a screeching halt when the Romans decided<br> their numbering system was different than the Greeks. Ever tried to multiply<br> in Roman numerals?: How about represent "0" or any negative number. 8-)<br> Anyway, within a short 200 hundred years after resurrecting the "better"<br> language for mathematics which was more than 1,500 year after things<br> stopped, calculus was born. So Descartes', along with others at the time,<br> were quite crippled by the past. What saved him a bit was the printing<br> press which had a similar affect to what the Internet is doing today. <br> <br> That said, as with most things not everything he said is bad. There are<br> shades of insight. The most important is breaking apart the observer and<br> understanding the interactions. In fact this is no longer done by science to<br> its detriment. It is like a weird 500 year truce between Religion and<br> Science that Science won't go there. Anyway, there are four layers each one<br> a higher level of abstraction from the source which for each of us<br> individually is subjective time. This is important because in order to<br> understand time travel you need to first understand the "thing" that is<br> doing the traveling and how it behaves within the stratum time (and space)<br> These are the four "orders":<br> <br> 1. Passage of time of the observer. This is if you were completely unaware<br> or sensing. The one thing that would hold is time passes. You might not be<br> conscious or aware but time passing happens.<br> <br> 2. Subjective experience of loosely: sensation, thought, feeling. (Being a<br> philosopher aka thought centric - Descartes' only recognized the root as his<br> "religion" aka philosophy but the same can be applied to the other two<br> channels of subjective experience.) The idea is no one can question that<br> you are not having the "values" of these: sensations, thoughts, feeling. Now<br> the values aka shape might be wrong and not match actual reality. But you<br> are having them. No one can take that away. (Actually there is a disorder<br> known to do this where people taste purple, feel triangles, etc.) This<br> translates to location again. The shape you are experiencing is at a<br> location in space time. The soul in some sense is the fabric, the location<br> itself.<br> <br> 3. Immediate (aka now) objective conclusions derived from the raw<br> interactions<br> <br> 4. Higher abstractions based on a collection of these objective conclusions<br> (with the assumption that the objective source whether memory, book,<br> recording, etc is not corrupt.)<br> <br> One way to show these 4 is to draw two axis: Observer and Observed. The<br> ends of each axis is Physical and Abstract.<br> <br> I find this is easier understood if "shown" both the Lathe of Heaven and<br> Matrix shows aspects of this order of reality from an experience<br> perspective. <br> <br> The first two insights are the most important. What Descartes' shown in the<br> nature of the observer (and space-time in general) is that shape and the<br> subjective experience to that shape can be duplicated. But the location<br> cannot. That is, the observer and the derived subjective experience mirrors<br> how dimensions work. You can duplicate any shape: electron, person, fear,<br> etc across the fabric of reality. Actually from second to second that is<br> what is happening with each one of us. Our present self is very similar to<br> the past self like a continuous, non breaking line drawn across the<br> multiverse. So time travel may be simply duplicating shapes. Of course that<br> causes philosophical problems with the nature of the soul as you time<br> traveled but the person also remains in their original location. But this<br> does match the reality of subjective experience. Think about it. Sure you<br> can tap into memories or look at videos but are you really feeling at that<br> past location in space time? No you are recreating the shapes and feeling<br> them in the present location of space-time. Subjectively you are completely<br> divorced from your past self. Thinking your past self is the same as your<br> current self is an illusion at a subjective level. Because of the<br> continuity of dimensions your present self is connected objectively with<br> objective structures such as scars, memories, video tapes you made, etc.<br> However you are completely divorced subjectively from this past person.<br> Hopefully you can see how this changes the perspective on what time travel<br> is and means. <br> <br> This brings up the other aspect of dimension. For every shape on the<br> dimension there is a unique location. Shapes can be duplicated, but<br> locations cannot. Now you might not be able to know that location due to<br> the fact you only can measure the shapes on the fabric, not the location.<br> Location is not coded into the fabric in some way. Even if it was it would<br> be the fact that something about the "shape" of the fabric relays location.<br> The idea of either was always just another shape or content in space, not<br> something intrinsic about location itself. As such an observer of the same<br> size and shape at the same location does not happen. (Though we might see<br> later that different sizes and shapes similar to wave forms can be<br> superimposed on one another and create subjective observers.) <br> <br> This also gets a bit interesting in the definition of "Soul". That is, we<br> can only sense, think, feel in a single location. We remember doing the same<br> thing seconds ago but this is through physical observed constructs such as<br> memory, not from subjectively living both locations of time. This opens up<br> a window to what time travel means. If you duplicate atom for atom in a<br> different location an exact duplicate of yourself - you would think you time<br> and space traveled. However there would be two entities sensing, thinking<br> and feeling the same thing. Oddly enough the sequential frames of a<br> person's lifetime can be thought of the same way. The continuity in<br> space-time which keeps the shape evolving makes us think that subjectively<br> these are the same but really if you do this mind experiment and think about<br> it from a purely subjective sense they are independent - just very similar<br> in shape and they interact with the environment morphing the shape in a way<br> to create memories and other abstract structures that makes the observer<br> feel they are 100% the same as the observer just a second prior. <br> <br> Hopefully that is a bit clearer. It is Descartes' analysis of the observer<br> that is important, not his conclusions per se. If you want to make an<br> observer time travel a massive update of what the observer is needs to occur<br> as science due to its history runs away from this topic when it is brought<br> up. <br> <br> > As such, physics is devoid of investigation of the nature of the observer<br> beyond defining it as a "clock" . <br> <br> > Two assumptions commonly made about the observer:<br> <br> > 1. The observer is substance based. However, a ti[d]al wave which has<br> consistent structure but no consistent substance has its own "clock" which<br> differs slightly from the water molecules flowing through it.<br> <br> >Sounds interesting but I'm not crystal clear on what you're saying. Can you<br> clarify?<br> <br> So this supports the idea that structure/shape defines the "value" of the<br> subjective experience at the location in space time.<br> <br> Do this thought experiment:<br> <br> 1. Imagine a tsunami.<br> <br> 2. Since fluid doesn't compress the "Shape" of the wave is traveling, not<br> the substance in the wave. That is water piles up and forms a bulge. Next<br> the water falls and flows forward, which creates another bulge. In reality<br> the water within the wave just made a circle. The energy was the only thing<br> transfered.<br> <br> 3. Use relativity to create clocks for both the shape of the wave, and a<br> circling atom within the wave. Since the water moves relative to the wave<br> the clocks will run slower relative to the other from their perspective.<br> When the wave finally crashes on the beach and stops relative to the water<br> the clock on the wave will have run less time than the individual atoms<br> flowing through it. By physic's incredibly feeble definition of an<br> observer, you can call the wave, though without consistent substance, an<br> observer.<br> <br> .<br> <br> > 2. The observer is the same observer past, present, future. You cannot<br> experience two time frames directly at once. <br> >Can two parts of your body be in different time frames, like when moving<br> through a wormhole into the past/future?<br> <br> The soul is subjectively divorced into segments the size of Plancks<br> constant. <br> <br> > Only through reexperiencing patterns in the present (i.e. memories,<br> videos, etc) can it be referenced at all. So subjectively the past instance<br> of yourself is <br> <br> >>no more related to the present instance of yourself than you are to a<br> stranger. It is only the relatively same "shape" of structure that makes the<br> two instances of observer act and coordinate.<br> >><br> >>Yes, I agree that past versions of yourself are different people.<br> <br> Ah good! So then understand the "easy" time travel is just the duplication<br> and destruction of the original shape on the fabric of space time. That<br> said, the original "shape" might get a bit bummed about being destroyed.<br> Moving only in time while space moves around you just cleanly gets rid of<br> the original (hence why there is no "myspace" in the relativistic equation:<br> MyTime ^^2 = YourSpace ^^ 2 + YourTime ^^2) But then you are limited by<br> the speed of light. Not so if you just duplicate a shape - although you<br> have to muck with quantum mechanics and entanglement to transfer info<br> instantly. In some ways you view relativity as the science of the observed<br> while quantum mechanics is the science of splitting the observer (aka under<br> size Plancks constant.) That is why when you plug one into the other time<br> cancels out. <br> <br> > The one other assumption to look at is the use of mathematic operators or<br> verbs within the multiverse you are describing. As an observer within the<br> fabric you are "burning time" within the fabric you are examining. That is<br> any "verb" or mathematical operation that requires time when describing<br> moving in the multivese is suspect. If you step outside time, it is all<br> static. <br> <br> >>Yes, the multiverse exists forever and all at once. Every space-time slice<br> through the multiverse is eternal.<br> <br> Yep!<br> <br> > The moment you put anything in motion you are introducing a new time line<br> which also can be stepped outside to observe. So any movement within the<br> multiverse is an illusion as that can only occur as a blurring of the fabric<br> creating the illusion of passing time and animating the fabric from within<br> Planck's constant area of the space-time multiverse fabric.<br> <br> >I didn't understand the part about Planck's Constant but I think I get your<br> point. Basically it's the idea that time flows and things move is an<br> illusion arising from our perspective as observers within the multiverse.<br> <br> >>OK, how do these points relate to the problem of whether you would survive<br> past/future-directed time travel through the wormhole?<br> <br> Ah yes... well the classic answer here - it depends. You can do either. <br> <br> 1. The traditional method is for the observer to flow forward in time while<br> everything around them either regresses or speeds forward in time. (If the<br> observer travelled back in time, it truly would be just that - the past. You<br> are simply looking at the observer as they were. What you want is to move<br> scars, memories, and other shape constructs to another area of space time.<br> So that gets a bit tricky.<br> <br> 2. The cheater way is to simply duplicate the shape where ever you want -<br> scars, memories, and all. Then toast the original. 8-) Not nice but oh<br> well. <br> <br> Thanks,<br> <br> http://www.nmsguru.com/DanNeedles.jpg<br> <br> DANIEL L. NEEDLES<br> Principal Consultant<br> <http://www.nmsguru.com> NMSGuru, Inc.<br> <skype:danielneedles> 512.627.6694<br> <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]<br> <br> <http://bit.ly/1amoW7Z> http://www.nmsguru.com/TerminalConnectionBanner.png<br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div style="clear:both"> </div> <div id="fromDMARC" style="margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style="height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: "Daniel L. Needles" <[email protected]> <hr style="height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;"> </div> <div style="clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=4px style="margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bold; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD" href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/messages/25685;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZDAyaDQ3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1Njg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTQxOTUwNDg0Mw--?act=reply&messageNum=25685">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20Wormholes%20have%20a%20branching%20structure" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px;"> <a href="mailto:[email protected]?subject=Re%3A%20Wormholes%20have%20a%20branching%20structure" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJldDJlZTc0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQxOTUwNDg0Mw--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px;color: #2D50FD;" > <a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/topics/25681;_ylc=X3oDMTM2Y2FvNWl0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1Njg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQxOTUwNDg0MwR0cGNJZAMyNTY4MQ--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (4) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; "><a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNTc4NzhlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQxOTUwNDg0Mw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> </ul> </div> <div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZXZtOGdhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDE5NTA0ODQz" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/ru/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! 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