Re: Ada Lovelace: others & forerunners
"Bruno Marchal [email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality]" <[email protected]> Fri, 9 Oct 2015 13:20:08 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Apple-Mail-17-78456974 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On 08 Oct 2015, at 23:21, David Deutsch david.deutsch-LR/[email protected] [Fabric-= of-Reality] wrote: > > On 8 Oct 2015, at 16:33, Bruno Marchal marchal@ulb.= ac.be [Fabric-of- > Reality] <[email protected]> wrote: >>= >> On 24 Sep 2015, at 13:33, hibbsa-/[email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote: >= >> regarding Ada Lovelace contributions to computing, David Deutsch >>> t= weets: >>> >>> "ProfBrianCox @FryRsquared Fascinating. It convinced me that= I was >>> wrong: Babbage never really got universality. Lovelace totally= did." >>> >> >> Hmm... I have a little french book from 1911 by Jacques La= fitte >> which gave me indirect evidence that Babbage did got the >> "u= niversality" insight (for computations). he got it not from his >> machin= e(s), but from the language he invented to describe the >> machine, and h= e realized that such a language is as powerfull than >> his machine. >> I= have evidence that Ada invented programming and subroutine, but I >> am = not sure she get the universality I will take a look (when I >> have more= time). > > The documentary says (and gives what I consider very strong >= arguments and evidence for, including Babbage's own letters to > Lovelac= e) that Babbage totally 'got' computational universality in > the arithme= tical sense, In the arithmetical sense already? I guess you mean in the se= nse of computing all arithmetical computable function (all computable f= unction from N to N), and not as meaning: being able to be emulated by ar= ithmetic (the later discovery made partially by G=C3=B6del and clearly by= davis and Kleene that a tiny part arithmetic (Robinson arithmetic) is Tu= ring universal. Today we know that just diophantine polynomials are already= Turing universal, even with the polynomial degree limited to 4. > and = was the first person ever to do so, and to recognise its > importance. I= nteresting! That's new evidence for me. It confirms Lafitte analysis, whi= ch was informal, as Lafitte did not yet know about Church-Turing thesis. = > But he didn't even conceive of using the registers of the Analytical = > Engine as symbols for anything but numbers -- until he read it in > Lo= velace's commentary. And even then, he thought it an interesting > but in= cidental property, not the fundamental and much more > significant one. = I will think about this, and look further. Thanks. Bruno Marchal > > --= David Deutsch > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --Apple-Mail-17-78456974 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><br><div><div>On 08 Oct 2015, at 23:21, David Deutsch <a href=3D"m= ailto:david.deutsch-LR/[email protected]">david.deutsch-LR/[email protected]</a> [Fabric-of-Reali= ty] wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D= "cite"> <div style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <span>&nb= sp;</span> <div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeh= older"></div><div id=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">On 8 Oct 2015, at 16:33, Bruno= Marchal <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:[email protected]= c.be" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">[email protected]</a> [Fabric-of-Realit= y] <<a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:Fabric-of-Reali= [email protected]" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">Fabric-of-Reality@yahoogr= oups.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><div><blockquote t= ype=3D"cite" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><br class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242= "><div class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><div style=3D"font-family:Monaco;font-= size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s= pacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= pacing:0px;" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><div class=3D"ygrps-yiv-98529324= 2">On 24 Sep 2015, at 13:33,<span class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242Apple-convert= ed-space"> </span><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto= :hibbsa-/[email protected]" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">hibbsa-/[email protected]</a><span = class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Fabric-of-= Reality] wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242= "><div style=3D"background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-98= 5293242"><div id=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242ygrp-text" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293= 242"><p style=3D"padding:15px 0px 3px;overflow:hidden;" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-= 985293242">regarding Ada Lovelace contributions to computing, David Deutsch= <span class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242Apple-converted-space"> </span><a re= l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://twitter.com/DavidDeutschOx= f/status/644977353651785730" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><font class=3D"y= grps-yiv-985293242">tweets</font></a>:</p><p style=3D"padding:15px 0px 3px;= overflow:hidden;" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">"<a rel=3D"nofollow" class= =3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><u class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><font color=3D"#0= 000ff" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"ygrps-yi= v-985293242">ProfBrianCox</span></font></u></a><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class= =3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><span class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242Apple-converted-= space"> </span></span><a rel=3D"nofollow" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242= "><u class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><strike class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><f= ont color=3D"#0000ff" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" cl= ass=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">@</span></font></strike><font color=3D"#0000ff"= class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">FryRsquared</font></u></a><span lang=3D"EN-G= B" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><span class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242Apple-co= nverted-space"> </span>Fascinating. It convinced me that I was wrong: = Babbage never really got universality. Lovelace totally did."</span></p></d= iv></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"font-family:Monaco;font-size:14px= ;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:no= rmal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p= x;" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">Hmm... I have a little french book from 1= 911 by Jacques Lafitte which gave me indirect evidence that Babbage did got= the "universality" insight (for computations). he got it not from his mach= ine(s), but from the language he invented to describe the machine, and he r= ealized that such a language is as powerfull than his machine.</div><div st= yle=3D"font-family:Monaco;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:nor= mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform= :none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;" class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242">I= have evidence that Ada invented programming and subroutine, but I am not s= ure she get the universality I will take a look (when I have more time).</d= iv></div></blockquote><br class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"></div><div>The docu= mentary says (and gives what I consider very strong arguments and evidence = for, including Babbage's own letters to Lovelace) that Babbage totally 'got= ' computational universality in the arithmetical sense, </div></div></div><= /div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>In the arithmetical sense alrea= dy? I guess you mean in the sense of computing all arithmetical computable = function (all computable function from N to N), and not as meaning: being a= ble to be emulated by arithmetic (the later discovery made partially by G= =C3=B6del and clearly by davis and Kleene that a tiny part arithmetic (Robi= nson arithmetic) is Turing universal.</div><div>Today we know that just dio= phantine polynomials are already Turing universal, even with the polynomial= degree limited to 4.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di= v style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><d= iv id=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div id=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><d= iv>and was the first person ever to do so, and to recognise its importance.= </div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Inter= esting! That's new evidence for me. It confirms Lafitte analysis, which was= informal, as Lafitte did not yet know about Church-Turing thesis.</div><di= v><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"back= ground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-m= sg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><div id=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><div>But he didn'= t even conceive of using the registers of the Analytical Engine as symbols = for anything but numbers -- until he read it in Lovelace's commentary. And = even then, he thought it an interesting but incidental property, not the fu= ndamental and much more significant one.</div></div></div></div></div></div= ></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I will think about this, and look further= . Thanks.</div><div><br></div><div>Bruno Marchal</div><div><br></div><div><= br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"background-color: rgb(= 255, 255, 255);"><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><div id=3D"ygr= p-text"><div id=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"><div><br class=3D"ygrps-yiv-9852932= 42"></div><div>-- David Deutsch</div><div><br class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"= ></div><br class=3D"ygrps-yiv-985293242"></div><div><br class=3D"webkit-blo= ck-placeholder"></div> </div> </div> <!-- end group email --= > </div></div></blockquote><br><div apple=3D"true"> <span class=3D"Apple-st= yle-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-famil= y: Helvetica;font-size: 12px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-w= eight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: auto;text-indent: 0px;"><d= iv><div><a href=3D"http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.= be/~marchal/</a></div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></d= iv></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background= -color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> <hr style= =3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;"> </div> <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversatio= ns/messages/25702;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxODM3OTZrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MD= AEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NzAyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM= TQ0NDQyMzc0OQ--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D25702">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DRe%3A%20Ada%20Lov= elace%3A%20others%20%26%20forerunners" style=3D"text-decoration: none; colo= r: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;"> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DR= e%3A%20Ada%20Lovelace%3A%20others%20%26%20forerunners" style=3D"text-decora= tion: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Realit= y/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlcjVqMmtjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE= 4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ0NDQyMz= c0OQ--" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</= a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;color: #2D50FD;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/topics/25699;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM2N3RhOGNtBF9TAzk= 3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NzAyBHNlYw= NmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ0NDQyMzc0OQR0cGNJZAMyNTY5OQ--" style=3D"text-d= ecoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (4) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> =20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-vital" style=3D"background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Ver= dana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id=3D"vithd" style=3D"font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transf= orm: uppercase; "><a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-= Reality/info;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlbThwOW44BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3J= wc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ0NDQyMzc0OQ--" styl= e=3D"text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span> <ul style=3D"list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: in= line;"> </ul> </div> <div id=3D"ft" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5p= x; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJkcHFxbG85BF9TAzk3ND= c2NTkwBGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzd= GltZQMxNDQ0NDIzNzQ5" style=3D"float: left;"><img src=3D"http://l.yimg.com/r= u/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height=3D"15"= width=3D"137" alt=3D"Yahoo! Groups" style=3D"border: 0;"/></a> <div style=3D"color: #747575; float: right;"> • <a href=3D"https://i= nfo.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html" style=3D"text-decoratio= n: none;">Privacy</a> • <a href=3D"mailto:Fabric-of-Reality-unsubscrib= [email protected]?subject=3DUnsubscribe" style=3D"text-decoration: none;">U= nsubscribe</a> • <a href=3D"https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos= /terms/" style=3D"text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a> </div> </div> <br> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> </div> <!-- ygrp-msg --> =20 <!-- Sponsor --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-sponsor" style=3D"width:160px; float:right; clear:none; m= argin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;"> <!-- Start Recommendations --> <div id=3D"ygrp-reco"> </div> <!-- End Recommendations --> </div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <div style=3D"clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div> </div> <img src=3D"http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=3D97359714/grpId=3D1888600/grpspI= d=3D1705020585/msgId=3D25702/stime=3D1444423749" width=3D"1" height=3D"1"> = <br> <img src=3D"http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywarid=3D515FB27823A7407E&a= =3D10001310322279&js=3Dno&resp=3Dimg" width=3D"1" height=3D"1">=20 <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </body> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <head> <style type=3D"text/css"> <!-- #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd { margin: 10px 0px; font-weight: 700; font-size: 78%; line-height: 122%; } #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad { margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 0 0; } #actions { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 11px; padding: 10px 0; } #activity { background-color: #e0ecee; float: left; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; padding: 10px; } #activity span { font-weight: 700; } #activity span:first-child { text-transform: uppercase; } #activity span a { color: #5085b6; text-decoration: none; } #activity span span { color: #ff7900; } #activity span .underline { text-decoration: underline; } .attach { clear: both; display: table; font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; padding: 10px 0; width: 400px; } .attach div a { text-decoration: none; } .attach img { border: none; padding-right: 5px; } .attach label { display: block; margin-bottom: 5px; } .attach label a { text-decoration: none; } =20=20 blockquote { margin: 0 0 0 4px; } .bold { font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; font-weight: 700; } .bold a { text-decoration: none; } dd.last p a { font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span { margin-right: 10px; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: 700; } dd.last p span.yshortcuts { margin-right: 0; } div.attach-table div div a { text-decoration: none; } div.attach-table { width: 400px; } div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.fi= le-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div= .photo-title a:visited { text-decoration: none; } div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts { font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; font-weight: normal; } .green { color: #628c2a; } .MsoNormal { margin: 0 0 0 0; } o { font-size: 0; } #photos div { float: left; width: 72px; } #photos div div { border: 1px solid #666666; height: 62px; overflow: hidden; width: 62px; } #photos div label { color: #666666; font-size: 10px; overflow: hidden; text-align: center; white-space: nowrap; width: 64px; } #reco-category { font-size: 77%; } #reco-desc { font-size: 77%; } .replbq { margin: 4px; } #ygrp-actbar div a:first-child { /* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/ margin-right: 2px; padding-right: 5px; } #ygrp-mlmsg { font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif; *font-size: small; *font: x-small; } #ygrp-mlmsg table { font-size: inherit; font: 100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea { font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif; } #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code { font:115% monospace; *font-size:100%; } #ygrp-mlmsg * { line-height: 1.22em; } #ygrp-mlmsg #logo { padding-bottom: 10px; } #ygrp-msg p a { font-family: Verdana; } #ygrp-msg p#attach-count span { color: #1E66AE; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco #reco-head { color: #ff7900; font-weight: 700; } #ygrp-reco { margin-bottom: 20px; padding: 0px; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a { font-size: 130%; text-decoration: none; } #ygrp-sponsor #ov li { font-size: 77%; list-style-type: square; padding: 6px 0; }=20 #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul { margin: 0; padding: 0 0 0 8px; } #ygrp-text { font-family: Georgia; } #ygrp-text p { margin: 0 0 1em 0; } #ygrp-text tt { font-size: 120%; } #ygrp-vital ul li:last-child { border-right: none !important;=20 }=20 --> </style> </head> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~--> </html> <!-- end group email --> --Apple-Mail-17-78456974--