Re: Ada Lovelace: others & forerunners
"Bruno Marchal [email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality]" <[email protected]> Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:25:41 +0200
| Newsgroups | gmane.science.physics.fabric-of-reality |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
--Apple-Mail-21-186790323 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On 09 Oct 2015, at 23:55, hibbsa-/[email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote: > >= ---In [email protected], <marchal@...> wrote : > > >>On 24 = Sep 2015, at 13:33, hibbsa@... > >>mailto:hibbsa@... [Fabric-of-Reality] wr= ote: > > >regarding Ada Lovelace contributions to computing, > >David Deuts= ch tweets https://twitter.com/ > >DavidDeutschOxf/status/644977353651785730= : > > > >"ProfBrianCox @FryRsquared Fascinating. It convinced > >me that I = was wrong: Babbage never really got universality. > >Lovelace totally did."= > > > >Hmm... I have a little french book from 1911 by > >Jacques Lafitte = which gave me indirect evidence > > that Babbage did got the "universality"= insight > > (for >computations). he got it not from his machine(s), > > bu= t from the language he invented to describe the > > machine, and he realize= d that such a language is > >as powerfull than his machine. > > I have evid= ence that Ada invented programming > >and subroutine, but I am not sure she= get the > > universality I will take a look (when I have more time). > > Y= es well....having seen the documentary I spent a little time > digging ou= t some details (actually all I did was visit (the site/ > blog of) some tr= usted historians of science). > Apparently all Ada Lovelace did was publish= a single paper, in which > she performed a translation to English of a l= ecture given by or for > Babbage. She added 'poetic annotations' on what = one might do with > the analytical engine. Which was entirely Babbage's' = work. Another > point was that not only was it absolute bullshit that Lov= elace > inspired or influenced at all the first computer, but that it's n= ot > straight forwarder that the analytical machine did. > Hi Hibbsa. Wh= at you describe is the usual opinion. But the book by Laffite expalins th= at when creating a lnague to describe the plan of he machine, Babbage eve= ntually realized that the language for the plan was as much a discovery t= han its machine, and that he felt frustrated not being able to communicat= e that discovery. It means that he undertood that his language was a univ= ersal machine too, in (a posteriroi) the mathematical sense which he did = not intent to make precise. Now, I have not seen that language, but I am= open to the idea that Babbage got the "tilt" of the "Turing universality= ". About ADA, my reading is that she invented the notion of subroutine, a= nd the practice of programming, which demands also some intuiotion of tha= t universality. With Babbage feeling about its language, the discovery = is made more explicit. Today we know that some diophantine polynomial relat= ion are Turing universal. Universality grows up at the very elementary pa= rt of the arithmetical reality. Bruno > > > my comment: > > > Hi= DD, I watched it after seeing your tweet, and found it > fascinating als= o. I thought you might be interested in the following > documentary, whic= h sheds light on a forerunner to Ada Lovelace. In > terms of universality= , that the possibility was being glimpsed (but > not realized) is evident= . > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o https://www.youtube.c= om/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o > > > Another recent documentary about Turing's Bl= etchley peer "Gordon > Welchman" whose contribution to the Collossus and = code breaking is > regarded as at least equal to Turing himself. Possibly= greater. > > > Bletchley Park: Code-breaking's Forgotten Genius http://www= .bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-= genius > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-c= odebreakings-forgotten-genius > > Bletchley Park: Code-breaking's Forgotten= Genius http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebr= eakings-forgotten-genius > A look at Gordon Welchman, a codebreaker cruci= al to the defeat of > the Nazis. > > View on www.bbc.co.uk http://www.bbc= .co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-geni= us > Preview by Yahoo > > > Of course, Leibniz was conceptually close to. M= y candidate for the > first real understanding of universality might be E= mil Post, the > founders, with Kleene of "recursion theory". > > > Only o= ne certainty: G=C3=B6del did not got it, and neither Church. > "Church's = thesis" is a label created by Kleene when he understood > that the class = of partial recursive function is closed for the > diagonalization procedu= re, what G=C3=B6del called a "miracle". G=C3=B6del > accepted Church's th= esis only after his reading of Turing, who got > it too of course. > > > = Bruno > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marc= hal/ > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --Apple-Mail-21-186790323 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><br><div><div>On 09 Oct 2015, at 23:55, <a href=3D"mailto:hibbsa@y= ahoo.com">hibbsa-/[email protected]</a> [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:</div><br class=3D= "Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div style=3D"ba= ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <span> </span> <div id=3D"y= grp-text"><p>>---In <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= >[email protected]</a>, <marchal@...> wrote :<br> <br= > >>On 24 Sep 2015, at 13:33, hibbsa@... <br> >><a href=3D"mail= to:hibbsa@">mailto:hibbsa@</a>... [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:<br> <br> >r= egarding Ada Lovelace contributions to computing, <br> >David Deutsch tw= eets <a href=3D"https://twitter.com/">https://twitter.com/</a><br> >Davi= dDeutschOxf/status/644977353651785730:<br> <br> <br> >"ProfBrianCox @Fry= Rsquared Fascinating. It convinced <br> >me that I was wrong: Babbage ne= ver really got universality. <br> >Lovelace totally did."<br> <br> <br> = >Hmm... I have a little french book from 1911 by <br> >Jacques Lafitt= e which gave me indirect evidence<br> > that Babbage did got the "univer= sality" insight<br> > (for >computations). he got it not from his mac= hine(s),<br> > but from the language he invented to describe the<br> >= ; machine, and he realized that such a language is <br> >as powerfull th= an his machine.<br> > I have evidence that Ada invented programming <br>= >and subroutine, but I am not sure she get the<br> > universality I = will take a look (when I have more time).<br> <br> Yes well....having seen = the documentary I spent a little time digging out some details (actually al= l I did was visit (the site/blog of) some trusted historians of science). <= br> Apparently all Ada Lovelace did was publish a single paper, in which sh= e performed a translation to English of a lecture given by or for Babbage. = She added 'poetic annotations' on what one might do with the analytical eng= ine. Which was entirely Babbage's' work. Another point was that not only wa= s it absolute bullshit that Lovelace inspired or influenced at all the firs= t computer, but that it's not straight forwarder that the analytical machin= e did. <br></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>Hi Hibbs= a. What you describe is the usual opinion. But the book by Laffite expalins= that when creating a lnague to describe the plan of he machine, Babbage ev= entually realized that the language for the plan was as much a discovery th= an its machine, and that he felt frustrated not being able to communicate t= hat discovery. It means that he undertood that his language was a universal= machine too, in (a posteriroi) the mathematical sense which he did not int= ent to make precise. Now, I have not seen that language, but I am ope= n to the idea that Babbage got the "tilt" of the "Turing universality". Abo= ut ADA, my reading is that she invented the notion of subroutine, and the p= ractice of programming, which demands also some intuiotion of that universa= lity. With Babbage feeling about its language, the discovery is made more e= xplicit. </div><div>Today we know that some diophantine polynomial rel= ation are Turing universal. Universality grows up at the very elementary pa= rt of the arithmetical reality. </div><div><br></div><div>Bruno</div><= div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><= div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"ba= ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp= -msg"><div id=3D"ygrp-text"><p> <br> <br> my comment:<br> <br> <br> Hi DD, = I watched it after seeing your tweet, and found it fascinating also. I thou= ght you might be interested in the following documentary, which sheds light= on a forerunner to Ada Lovelace. In terms of universality, that the possib= ility was being glimpsed (but not realized) is evident.<br> <br> <br> <a hr= ef=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o">https://www.youtube.co= m/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o</a> <a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbL= b54FCMt9o">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o</a><br> <br> <br> = Another recent documentary about Turing's Bletchley peer "Gordon Welchman" = whose contribution to the Collossus and code breaking is regarded as at lea= st equal to Turing himself. Possibly greater.<br> <br> <br> Bletchley Park:= Code-breaking's Forgotten Genius <a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/e= pisode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius">http://www.b= bc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-ge= nius</a><br> <br> <br> <a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069= gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/ip= layer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius</a><br= > <br> Bletchley Park: Code-breaking's Forgotten Genius <a href=3D"http://w= ww.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotte= n-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-code= breakings-forgotten-genius</a> A look at Gordon Welchman, a codebreaker cru= cial to the defeat of the Nazis.<br> <br> View on www.bbc.co.uk <a href=3D"= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-= forgotten-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-p= ark-codebreakings-forgotten-genius</a><br> Preview by Yahoo <br> <br> <br> = Of course, Leibniz was conceptually close to. My candidate for the first re= al understanding of universality might be Emil Post, the founders, with Kle= ene of "recursion theory".<br> <br> <br> Only one certainty: G=C3=B6del did= not got it, and neither Church. "Church's thesis" is a label created by Kl= eene when he understood that the class of partial recursive function is clo= sed for the diagonalization procedure, what G=C3=B6del called a "miracle". = G=C3=B6del accepted Church's thesis only after his reading of Turing, who g= ot it too of course.<br> <br> <br> Bruno<br> <br> <br> <a href=3D"http://ir= idia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a> <a href=3D"= http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></p= > </div> </div> <!-- end group email --> </div></div></block= quote><br><div apple=3D"true"> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"bo= rder-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: Helvetica;font-siz= e: 12px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-= spacing: normal;text-align: auto;text-indent: 0px;"><div><div><a href=3D"ht= tp://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></div= ><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></span><br class= =3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background= -color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> <hr style= =3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;"> </div> <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversatio= ns/messages/25704;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxYXQwMTM5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MD= AEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NzA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM= TQ0NDUwMTA0MA--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D25704">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DRe%3A%20Ada%20Lov= elace%3A%20others%20%26%20forerunners" style=3D"text-decoration: none; colo= r: #2D50FD;"> Reply to sender </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;"> <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]?subject=3DR= e%3A%20Ada%20Lovelace%3A%20others%20%26%20forerunners" style=3D"text-decora= tion: none; color: #2D50FD"> Reply to group </a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Realit= y/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlN3N0ZzVwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE= 4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ0NDUwMT= A0MA--" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</= a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5p= x 5px;color: #2D50FD;" > <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= Fabric-of-Reality/conversations/topics/25699;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM2ZDk4ZDk5BF9TAzk= 3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NzA0BHNlYw= NmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ0NDUwMTA0MAR0cGNJZAMyNTY5OQ--" style=3D"text-d= ecoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a> (6) </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> =20 <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id=3D"ygrp-vital" style=3D"background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Ver= dana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id=3D"vithd" style=3D"font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transf= orm: uppercase; "><a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-= Reality/info;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJlZThwZjJtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3J= wc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ0NDUwMTA0MA--" styl= e=3D"text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span> <ul style=3D"list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: in= line;"> </ul> </div> <div id=3D"ft" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5p= x; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;"> <a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJkdDhnaXJxBF9TAzk3ND= c2NTkwBGdycElkAzE4ODg2MDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzd= GltZQMxNDQ0NTAxMDQw" style=3D"float: left;"><img src=3D"http://l.yimg.com/r= u/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height=3D"15"= width=3D"137" alt=3D"Yahoo! 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