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<p>>---In [email protected], <marchal@...> w=
rote :<br>
<br>
>On 14 Oct 2015, at 16:21, hibbsa@... mailto:hibbsa@... <br>
>[Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:<br>
<br>
>>---In [email protected] <br>
>>mailto:[email protected], <marchal@...> wrote=
:<br>
<br>
>> On 09 Oct 2015, at 23:55, hibbsa@... mailto:hibbsa@ mailto:hibbsa@=
...<br>
>>[Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:<br>
<br>
>> >---In [email protected] <br>
>>>mailto:[email protected] mailto:<br>
>>>[email protected] mailto:Fabric-of-Reality@yaho=
ogroups.com, <br>
>>><marchal@...> wrote :<br>
<br>
>>>>On 24 Sep 2015, at 13:33, hibbsa@... <br>
>>>>mailto:hibbsa@ mailto:hibbsa@ mailto:hibbsa@ mailto:hibbsa@=
... <br>
>>>>[Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:<br>
<br>
>>>regarding Ada Lovelace contributions to computing, <br>
>>>David Deutsch tweets https://twitter.com/ <br>
>>>https://twitter.com/ https://twitter.com/ https://twitter.com/<=
br>
>>>DavidDeutschOxf/status/644977353651785730:<br>
<br>
<br>
>>>"ProfBrianCox @FryRsquared Fascinating. It convinced <br>
>>>me that I was wrong: Babbage never really got universality. <br=
>
>>>Lovelace totally did."<br>
<br>
<br>
>>>Hmm... I have a little french book from 1911 by <br>
>>>Jacques Lafitte which gave me indirect evidence<br>
>>> that Babbage did got the "universality" insight<br>
>>> (for >computations). he got it not from his machine(s),<br>
>>> but from the language he invented to describe the<br>
>>> machine, and he realized that such a language is <br>
>>>as powerfull than his machine.<br>
>>> I have evidence that Ada invented programming <br>
>>>and subroutine, but I am not sure she get the<br>
>>> universality I will take a look (when I have more time).<br>
<br>
>> Yes well....having seen the documentary I spent a<br>
>>little time digging out some details (actually all I did <br>
>>was visit (the site/blog of) some trusted historians of science). <=
br>
>>Apparently all Ada Lovelace did was publish a single<br>
>>paper, in which she performed a translation to English <br>
>>of a lecture given by or for Babbage. She added 'poetic <br>
>>annotations' on what one might do with the analytical <br>
>>engine. Which was entirely Babbage's' work. Another<br>
>>point was that not only was it absolute bullshit that <br>
>>Lovelace inspired or influenced at all the first computer, <br>
>>but that it's not straight forwarder that the analytical <br>
>>machine did. <br>
<br>
>>Hi Hibbsa. What you describe is the usual opinion. <br>
>>But the book by Laffite expalins that when creating a <br>
>>lnague to describe the plan of he machine, Babbage <br>
>>eventually realized that the language for the plan <br>
>>was as much a discovery than its machine, and that <br>
>>he felt frustrated not being able to communicate that <br>
>>discovery. It means that he undertood that his language <br>
>>was a universal machine too, in (a posteriroi) the <br>
>>mathematical sense which he did not intent to make <br>
>>precise. Now, I have not seen that language, but I am<br>
>>open to the idea that Babbage got the "tilt" of the "=
;Turing <br>
>>universality". About ADA, my reading is that she invented<br>
>>the notion of subroutine, and the practice of programming, <br>
>>which demands also some intuiotion of that universality. <br>
>>With Babbage feeling about its language, the discovery is<br>
>> made more explicit. <br>
>> Today we know that some diophantine polynomial relation <br>
>>are Turing universal. Universality grows >up at the very <br>
>>elementary part of the arithmetical reality. <br>
<br>
>Hi Bruno, hope you're well, <br>
>Sure, on the face of it there's some compelling elements <br>
>there. It's also significant - from my perspective - that <br>
>Deutsch says he found it convincing. Because I know how <br>
>much thinking he does about universality. <br>
>Just to clarify, because it isn't clear whether that last <br>
>post from me was expressing my own view or the view of some <br>
>historians. Actually I was just paraphrasing the views I read. <br>
>But...I do think historians have a lot to input into this sort <br>
>of thing. <br>
>The big question is really whether there is actual causality <br>
>in the flow of certain historical events. No one would likely <br>
>doubt that Lovelace anticipated aspects of computing. But the <br>
>question of whether she changed the line of history is more involved. <=
br>
>The difference is just that any number of people can be said <br>
>in hindsight to have anticipated. That number is really directly <br>
>proportional to the detail of history that one is aware. Whereas <br>
>to be in the line of causality is much more constrained. So a much <br>
>higher accolade. <br>
<br>
>Hi Hibbsa,<br>
<br>
<br>
>What is interesting is that G=C3=B6del missed Church's thesis, <br>
>and disbelieve it until reading Turing's paper. <br>
>Church itself did not really grasp it as much as people <br>
>like Emil Post, or Stephen Kleene, or the philosopher <br>
>Judson Webb, who wrote a book showing how the classical <br>
>machine already defeat Lucas-Pensore type of argument.<br>
<br>
Your earlier very interesting reply to David Deutsch touched on <br>
this matter. It's a period and subject into which I am lately <br>
more curious. For example, I know that Einstein spent a lot of<br>
his time while visiting, walking about with Godel. Naively I <br>
do wonder what they were talking about, and given it was over <br>
that period Einstein was struggling with 'spooky action at a <br>
distance', whether he was playing around with 'incompleteness' =
<br>
and 'uncertainty' with a view to a possible relation. And if <br>
he was, does that mean he was actually looking for an abstract <br>
"meta" explanation. No one else was doing that...no one else went=
<br>
there at that time, I don't think. Whatta guy :O)<br>
<br>
I'd like to be able to say something directly relevant to your <br>
point, but I'm out of my depth for now, I'm afraid.<br>
<br>
<br>
>Deustch seems to believe in a notion of physical universality, <br>
>in a stronger sense: the existence of a physical machine able <br>
>to emulate all physical systems in polynomial time. To me, <br>
>this is an open problem. One type of universal system would <br>
>won in the statistics of all computations, and would have <br>
>that property. It is quite plausible, but it is still an <br>
>open problem to me, or in arithmetic (such problems can <br>
>be translated in arithmetic, or in arithmetical terms <br>
>(involving possible quite complex set of numbers, like <br>
>arithmetical truth). The fact that the observable of the <br>
>Turing machine, as I define them, have a natural quantization <br>
>in arithmetic is just a promise toward such quantum machine. <br>
>Empirically, the evidences are quite strong, no doubt.<br>
<br>
I actually don't think physical sciences would have come down <br>
from the trees in the first place had there been a dogmatic <br>
attachment to things as they first appear to be, or not one <br>
that was conscious and deliberate. <br>
<br>
The unconscious 'bias' type flavour is legitimate and should<br>
more attention and/or a better standard of attention IMHO. But <br>
attributing that sort of thing to individuals is not something <br>
that I would personally want to do. It's also a little <br>
self-defeating because doing so presumably entails giving oneself <br>
a clean bill of health on those same terms, to be fit to examine <br>
others without fear of personal bias. <br>
<br>
>Best,<br>
<br>
<br>
>Bruno<br>
<br>
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