Re: Ada Lovelace: others & forerunners
"Bruno Marchal [email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality]" <[email protected]> Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:54:35 +0200
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--Apple-Mail-69--932959186 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On 14 Oct 2015, at 16:21, hibbsa-/[email protected] [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote: > >= ---In [email protected], <marchal@...> wrote : > > > On 09 = Oct 2015, at 23:55, hibbsa@... mailto:hibbsa@... > [Fabric-of-Reality] wrot= e: > > > >---In [email protected] mailto: > Fabric-of-Reali= [email protected], <marchal@...> wrote : > > >>>On 24 Sep 2015, at 13:33, = hibbsa@... > >>>mailto:hibbsa@ mailto:hibbsa@... [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:= > > >>regarding Ada Lovelace contributions to computing, > >>David Deutsch= tweets https://twitter.com/ https://twitter.com/ > >>DavidDeutschOxf/statu= s/644977353651785730: > > > >>"ProfBrianCox @FryRsquared Fascinating. It co= nvinced > >>me that I was wrong: Babbage never really got universality. > >= >Lovelace totally did." > > > >>Hmm... I have a little french book from 191= 1 by > >>Jacques Lafitte which gave me indirect evidence > >> that Babbage = did got the "universality" insight > >> (for >computations). he got it not = from his machine(s), > >> but from the language he invented to describe the= > >> machine, and he realized that such a language is > >>as powerfull tha= n his machine. > >> I have evidence that Ada invented programming > >>and s= ubroutine, but I am not sure she get the > >> universality I will take a lo= ok (when I have more time). > > > Yes well....having seen the documentary I= spent a > >little time digging out some details (actually all I did > >was= visit (the site/blog of) some trusted historians of science). > >Apparentl= y all Ada Lovelace did was publish a single > >paper, in which she performe= d a translation to English > >of a lecture given by or for Babbage. She add= ed 'poetic > >annotations' on what one might do with the analytical > >engi= ne. Which was entirely Babbage's' work. Another > >point was that not only = was it absolute bullshit that > >Lovelace inspired or influenced at all the= first computer, > >but that it's not straight forwarder that the analytica= l > >machine did. > > >Hi Hibbsa. What you describe is the usual opinion. >= >But the book by Laffite expalins that when creating a > >lnague to descri= be the plan of he machine, Babbage > >eventually realized that the language= for the plan > >was as much a discovery than its machine, and that > >he f= elt frustrated not being able to communicate that > >discovery. It means th= at he undertood that his language > >was a universal machine too, in (a pos= teriroi) the > >mathematical sense which he did not intent to make > >preci= se. Now, I have not seen that language, but I am > >open to the idea that B= abbage got the "tilt" of the "Turing > >universality". About ADA, my readin= g is that she invented > >the notion of subroutine, and the practice of pro= gramming, > >which demands also some intuiotion of that universality. > >Wi= th Babbage feeling about its language, the discovery is > > made more expli= cit. > > Today we know that some diophantine polynomial relation are Turing= > universal. Universality grows >up at the very elementary part of the = > arithmetical reality. > > Hi Bruno, hope you're well, > Sure, on the fac= e of it there's some compelling elements there. It's > also significant -= from my perspective - that Deutsch says he found > it convincing. Becaus= e I know how much thinking he does about > universality. > Just to clarif= y, because it isn't clear whether that last post from > me was expressing= my own view or the view of some historians. > Actually I was just paraph= rasing the views I read. But...I do think > historians have a lot to inpu= t into this sort of thing. > The big question is really whether there is ac= tual causality in the > flow of certain historical events. No one would l= ikely doubt that > Lovelace anticipated aspects of computing. But the que= stion of > whether she changed the line of history is more involved. > Th= e difference is just that any number of people can be said in > hindsight= to have anticipated. That number is really directly > proportional to th= e detail of history that one is aware. Whereas to > be in the line of cau= sality is much more constrained. So a much > higher accolade. > Hi Hibbs= a, What is interesting is that G=C3=B6del missed Church's thesis, and di= sbelieve it until reading Turing's paper. Church itself did not really gras= p it as much as people like Emil Post, or Stephen Kleene, or the philosop= her Judson Webb, who wrote a book showing how the classical machine alrea= dy defeat Lucas-Pensore type of argument. Deustch seems to believe in a = notion of physical universality, in a stronger sense: the existence of a = physical machine able to emulate all physical systems in polynomial time.= To me, this is an open problem. One type of universal system would won i= n the statistics of all computations, and would have that property. It is= quite plausible, but it is still an open problem to me, or in arithmetic= (such problems can be translated in arithmetic, or in arithmetical terms= (involving possible quite complex set of numbers, like arithmetical trut= h). The fact that the observable of the Turing machine, as I define them,= have a natural quantization in arithmetic is just a promise toward such = quantum machine. Empirically, the evidences are quite strong, no doubt. = Best, Bruno > > > > Bruno > > > my comment: > > > Hi DD, I watched it= after seeing your tweet, and found it > fascinating also. I thought you = might be interested in the following > documentary, which sheds light on = a forerunner to Ada Lovelace. In > terms of universality, that the possib= ility was being glimpsed (but > not realized) is evident. > > > https://w= ww.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb5= 4FCMt9o > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o https://www.youtu= be.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o > > > Another recent documentary about Turing'= s Bletchley peer "Gordon > Welchman" whose contribution to the Collossus = and code breaking is > regarded as at least equal to Turing himself. Poss= ibly greater. > > > Bletchley Park: Code-breaking's Forgotten Genius http:/= /www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgot= ten-genius > http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park= -codebreakings-forgotten-genius > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/= b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius > http://www.bbc.c= o.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius= > > Bletchley Park: Code-breaking's Forgotten Genius http://www.bbc.co.uk/= iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius > = http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-= forgotten-genius > A look at Gordon Welchman, a codebreaker crucial to th= e defeat of > the Nazis. > > View on www.bbc.co.uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/i= player/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius > h= ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-f= orgotten-genius > Preview by Yahoo > > > Of course, Leibniz was conceptuall= y close to. My candidate for the > first real understanding of universali= ty might be Emil Post, the > founders, with Kleene of "recursion theory".= > > > Only one certainty: G=C3=B6del did not got it, and neither Church. = > "Church's thesis" is a label created by Kleene when he understood > th= at the class of partial recursive function is closed for the > diagonaliz= ation procedure, what G=C3=B6del called a "miracle". G=C3=B6del > accepte= d Church's thesis only after his reading of Turing, who got > it too of c= ourse. > > > Bruno > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ http://iridia.ul= b.ac.be/~marchal/ http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > http://iridia.ulb.a= c.be/~marchal/ > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ http://iridia.ulb.ac.b= e/~marchal/ > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --Apple-Mail-69--932959186 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/htm= l4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> =20 <body style=3D"background-color: #fff;"> <span style=3D"display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg" style=3D"position:relative;"> <div id=3D"ygrp-msg" style=3D"z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id=3D"ygrp-text" > =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 <p><br><div><div>On 14 Oct 2015, at 16:21, <a href=3D"mailto:hibbsa@y= ahoo.com">hibbsa-/[email protected]</a> [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:</div><br class=3D= "Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div style=3D"ba= ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <span> </span> <div id=3D"y= grp-text"><p>>---In <a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"= >[email protected]</a>, <marchal@...> wrote :<br> <br= > > On 09 Oct 2015, at 23:55, hibbsa@... <a href=3D"mailto:hibbsa@">mail= to:hibbsa@</a>...<br> [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:<br> <br> > >---In <= a href=3D"mailto:[email protected]">Fabric-of-Reality@yahoo= groups.com</a> mailto:<br> <a href=3D"mailto:Fabric-of-Reality@yahoogroups.= com">[email protected]</a>, <marchal@...> wrote :<br>= <br> >>>On 24 Sep 2015, at 13:33, hibbsa@... <br> >>><a = href=3D"mailto:hibbsa@">mailto:hibbsa@</a> <a href=3D"mailto:hibbsa@">mailt= o:hibbsa@</a>... [Fabric-of-Reality] wrote:<br> <br> >>regarding Ada = Lovelace contributions to computing, <br> >>David Deutsch tweets <a h= ref=3D"https://twitter.com/">https://twitter.com/</a> <a href=3D"https://tw= itter.com/">https://twitter.com/</a><br> >>DavidDeutschOxf/status/644= 977353651785730:<br> <br> <br> >>"ProfBrianCox @FryRsquared Fascinati= ng. It convinced <br> >>me that I was wrong: Babbage never really got= universality. <br> >>Lovelace totally did."<br> <br> <br> >>Hm= m... I have a little french book from 1911 by <br> >>Jacques Lafitte = which gave me indirect evidence<br> >> that Babbage did got the "univ= ersality" insight<br> >> (for >computations). he got it not from h= is machine(s),<br> >> but from the language he invented to describe t= he<br> >> machine, and he realized that such a language is <br> >&= gt;as powerfull than his machine.<br> >> I have evidence that Ada inv= ented programming <br> >>and subroutine, but I am not sure she get th= e<br> >> universality I will take a look (when I have more time).<br>= <br> > Yes well....having seen the documentary I spent a<br> >little= time digging out some details (actually all I did <br> >was visit (the = site/blog of) some trusted historians of science). <br> >Apparently all = Ada Lovelace did was publish a single<br> >paper, in which she performed= a translation to English <br> >of a lecture given by or for Babbage. Sh= e added 'poetic <br> >annotations' on what one might do with the analyti= cal <br> >engine. Which was entirely Babbage's' work. Another<br> >po= int was that not only was it absolute bullshit that <br> >Lovelace inspi= red or influenced at all the first computer, <br> >but that it's not str= aight forwarder that the analytical <br> >machine did. <br> <br> >Hi = Hibbsa. What you describe is the usual opinion. <br> >But the book by La= ffite expalins that when creating a <br> >lnague to describe the plan of= he machine, Babbage <br> >eventually realized that the language for the= plan <br> >was as much a discovery than its machine, and that <br> >= he felt frustrated not being able to communicate that <br> >discovery. I= t means that he undertood that his language <br> >was a universal machin= e too, in (a posteriroi) the <br> >mathematical sense which he did not i= ntent to make <br> >precise. Now, I have not seen that language, but I = am<br> >open to the idea that Babbage got the "tilt" of the "Turing <br>= >universality". About ADA, my reading is that she invented<br> >the = notion of subroutine, and the practice of programming, <br> >which deman= ds also some intuiotion of that universality. <br> >With Babbage feeling= about its language, the discovery is<br> > made more explicit. <br> >= ; Today we know that some diophantine polynomial relation are Turing univer= sal. Universality grows >up at the very elementary part of the arithmeti= cal reality. <br> <br> Hi Bruno, hope you're well, <br> Sure, on the face o= f it there's some compelling elements there. It's also significant - from m= y perspective - that Deutsch says he found it convincing. Because I know ho= w much thinking he does about universality. <br> Just to clarify, because i= t isn't clear whether that last post from me was expressing my own view or = the view of some historians. Actually I was just paraphrasing the views I r= ead. But...I do think historians have a lot to input into this sort of thin= g. <br> The big question is really whether there is actual causality in the= flow of certain historical events. No one would likely doubt that Lovelace= anticipated aspects of computing. But the question of whether she changed = the line of history is more involved. <br> The difference is just that any = number of people can be said in hindsight to have anticipated. That number = is really directly proportional to the detail of history that one is aware.= Whereas to be in the line of causality is much more constrained. So a much= higher accolade. <br></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><di= v>Hi Hibbsa,</div><div><br></div><div>What is interesting is that G=C3=B6de= l missed Church's thesis, and disbelieve it until reading Turing's paper.&n= bsp;</div><div>Church itself did not really grasp it as much as people like= Emil Post, or Stephen Kleene, or the philosopher Judson Webb, who wrote a = book showing how the classical machine already defeat Lucas-Pensore type of= argument.</div><div><br></div><div>Deustch seems to believe in a notion of= physical universality, in a stronger sense: the existence of a physical ma= chine able to emulate all physical systems in polynomial time. To me, this = is an open problem. One type of universal system would won in the statistic= s of all computations, and would have that property. It is quite plausible,= but it is still an open problem to me, or in arithmetic (such problems can= be translated in arithmetic, or in arithmetical terms (involving possible = quite complex set of numbers, like arithmetical truth). The fact that the o= bservable of the Turing machine, as I define them, have a natural quantizat= ion in arithmetic is just a promise toward such quantum machine. Empiricall= y, the evidences are quite strong, no doubt.</div><div><br></div><div><br><= /div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Bruno</div><div><br></div><div><br= ></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"backgroun= d-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id=3D"ygrp-mlmsg"><div id=3D"ygrp-msg"><= div id=3D"ygrp-text"><p><br> <br> <br> Bruno<br> <br> <br> my comment:<br> = <br> <br> Hi DD, I watched it after seeing your tweet, and found it fascina= ting also. I thought you might be interested in the following documentary, = which sheds light on a forerunner to Ada Lovelace. In terms of universality= , that the possibility was being glimpsed (but not realized) is evident.<br= > <br> <br> <a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o">https= ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o</a> <a href=3D"https://www.youtube= .com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o</= a> <a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o">https://www.yo= utube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o</a> <a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/watc= h?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbLb54FCMt9o</a><br> <b= r> <br> Another recent documentary about Turing's Bletchley peer "Gordon We= lchman" whose contribution to the Collossus and code breaking is regarded a= s at least equal to Turing himself. Possibly greater.<br> <br> <br> Bletchl= ey Park: Code-breaking's Forgotten Genius <a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/i= player/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius">http= ://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forg= otten-genius</a> <a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/b= letchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/= episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius</a><br> <br>= <br> <a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-pa= rk-codebreakings-forgotten-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06= 9gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius</a> <a href=3D"http://w= ww.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotte= n-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-code= breakings-forgotten-genius</a><br> <br> Bletchley Park: Code-breaking's For= gotten Genius <a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/blet= chley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/epi= sode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius</a> <a href=3D"= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-= forgotten-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-p= ark-codebreakings-forgotten-genius</a> A look at Gordon Welchman, a codebre= aker crucial to the defeat of the Nazis.<br> <br> View on www.bbc.co.uk <a = href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebr= eakings-forgotten-genius">http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/ble= tchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius</a> <a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co= .uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings-forgotten-genius"= >http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b069gxz7/bletchley-park-codebreakings= -forgotten-genius</a><br> Preview by Yahoo <br> <br> <br> Of course, Leibni= z was conceptually close to. My candidate for the first real understanding = of universality might be Emil Post, the founders, with Kleene of "recursion= theory".<br> <br> <br> Only one certainty: G=C3=B6del did not got it, and = neither Church. "Church's thesis" is a label created by Kleene when he unde= rstood that the class of partial recursive function is closed for the diago= nalization procedure, what G=C3=B6del called a "miracle". G=C3=B6del accept= ed Church's thesis only after his reading of Turing, who got it too of cour= se.<br> <br> <br> Bruno<br> <br> <br> <a href=3D"http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~m= archal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a> <a href=3D"http://iridia.ulb= .ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a> <a href=3D"http://i= ridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a> <a href=3D= "http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a><b= r> <br> <a href=3D"http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.ulb.ac.= be/~marchal/</a> <a href=3D"http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridi= a.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></p> </div> </div> <!-- end group e= mail --> </div></div></blockquote><br><div apple=3D"true"> <span class=3D"A= pple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate;color: rgb(0, 0, 0);fon= t-family: Helvetica;font-size: 12px;font-style: normal;font-variant: normal= ;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-align: auto;text-indent: 0= px;"><div><div><a href=3D"http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/">http://iridia.= ulb.ac.be/~marchal/</a></div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></= div></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></p> </div> =20=20=20=20=20 <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style=3D"color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <div id=3D"fromDMARC" style=3D"margin-top: 10px;"> <hr style=3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background= -color:#E3E3E3;"> Posted by: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> <hr style= =3D"height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;"> </div> <div style=3D"clear:both"> </div> <table cellspacing=3D4px style=3D"margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px= ; color: #2D50FD;"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bo= ld; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" > <a style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD= " href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fabric-of-Reality/conversatio= ns/messages/25707;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJxNDc4N3QwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE4ODg2MD= AEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDIwNTg1BG1zZ0lkAzI1NzA3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDM= TQ0NTU0MzkzNw--?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D25707">Reply via web post</a> </td> <td>•</td> <td style=3D"font-size: 12px; 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