Re: Amnesia/ was ]Another Bush Crime against humanity and Gaia

on 1/29/05 6:55 PM, Globalcircle at [email protected] wrote:

> 
> Forest, I really don't want to sound quarrelsome, because I can support
> some of your vision. I have to say that consensus organized non-profit land
> trust is a strange bird that just can't fly.

i beg to differ, certainly if one is not interested or passionate about
wanting to evolve and have deeper spiritual connections with nature and each
other, and continue to refine what we don't like about a new system, then
sure what you say may be true for much of the mass consciousness...but if
eco-balance is something we are truly passionate about, i see no other
system that is more likely to create that balance....but we are all ready
for change and/or evolution at our own rates and times, so sure it is good
to have many political systems avialable so we can choose....however imh-bs
there is too much eco-destructive energies now on earth to ignore the one
most likely to bring them in balance....

> We've heard endless plans for
> egalitarian consensus-organized communities for decades.

as i said, it is a paradigm shift waiting to happen, with little or no
support, and with attitudes like yours, it will never happen for some, but
for others it is happening now.....i bet democracy was a fantasy to many
before it ever happened to...or like my dad who says wars will always
happen, they will never have peace on earth...i don't believe things just
cause the masses do and don't act on change or evolution....i like to be on
the cutting edge of things, to each his/her own i suppose....i suspect all
positive growth on earth is the result of a few stubborn idealists that had
the passion and spirit to keep the faith when others put them down or did
not believe.....but the eco-destruction clock is ticking....

>  You might
> consider why they all fail at being true consensus, or just never get off
> the ground 99 times out of a hundred.

i do consider that very much for many years, and me own take on it is cause
there are so many skeptics like you, and we are all programmed in society to
compete with each other in the old hierarchical traditions, rather than make
more efforts to cooperate....plus it is scarey and humbling too much for
some because of their ego-centered co-dependant habits in communications and
politics.....

> I don't care if somebody claims a
> success at that; they're fudging the truth about how they actually work.
> All projects and organizations have some form of leadership.

well, i can see you are not too intersted....imh-bs the most ideal consensus
council would have members who all have leadership skills, but prefer to go
beyond the leader/follower polarity mindset and explore joining with other
leader types in some expanded, more effective, spiritual group mind
experience, that is more than the sum of it's parts...not for everyone for
sure at this time in his-story....but imh-bs the only way to put in check
the eco-destructive energies on the planet in time to save it....the clock
is ticking, we can put our head in the sand and ignore it and go back to
"business and politics as usual" or we can get serious and see/sense that
technology and monopoly capitalism, and democracy is quickly evolving the
world and political structures to our detriment....the exponential growth of
technology and capitalism needs to be equaled by exponential growth in
evolving political structures imh-bs....
> 
>> once we create more examples and show the masses how
>> happy, spiritual, and comfortable we can be, i suspect many others will
>> join
> 
> Must respectfully point out that you can't change human nature.

huWoMan nature has slowly been changing and evolving for millenia....it is
so slow it appears to some to not be changing at all, but i say there are
more huWoMan rights and consciousness than ever before in his-story globally
despite the fact that the usa is falling behind it seems....technology is
moving/changing so fast, that imh-bs political systems need to do the same
If people wish to survive....your attitude sounds very hopeless to me, i
cannot accept that, i am eternal optimist, still knowing it may not happen
in time, i still remain passionate and hopeful.....

> won't accept some form of community that you think right for them, then it
> means it is NOT right for them.

not now perhaps, most are slow to change, most quit after adolescence.....
but if more and more evolved/improved examples happen around those types of
folks, eventually they or their children may eventually see the value in
health, spirit, happiness in evolving communication and decision making
systems....

> Now if you really want a more sustainable
> society, you need to focus on some kind of social organization people can
> live with. You can't say, ok I want a more sustainable society, but I want
> it MY way. 

consensus is just the opposite of "my way", it is "our way"....hierarchies
say it is the way of the most pushy, interuptive, dominant one/ones....that
is why we are in the mess we are in today with environment and our sick
societies....america is falling behind in consciousness imh-bs because of
folks who think like you....i do not see peace on earth or a clean
environment without consensus political structures being the norm....
 
> I don't see the male dominance as the end-all root cause of all evil.  Male
> dominance is natural in many species for biological survival. It does not
> have to mean abusive, acquisitive, or combative.  Having been around the
> block myself, I'm convinced that women hold as much or more power than men
> in this world because they have something men want -- obviously. You should
> know that.

male dominance has an important place in nature in animal societies....just
there are so many human animals now out there in the world, we need to
refine and evolve better systems of politics in order to survive, plus i
want more than an animal pecking order consciousness.....ya, now since
women's lib is more the norm, we have women imitating men in the pecking
order for jobs and politics as usual, not ideal imh-bs....now we have male
and female dominance....but women and men imh-bs should listen more to
intuition in the spirit of left right brain balance for most ideal systems
to develop....  
> 
> I don't see democracy as the best form of government. Why? Because as the
> founding father said, that government governs best that governs least.
> Maximize freedom. Just because some idiot majority passes a law doesn't
> make it right or just, now does it?  But it's democracy, huh.  No, let
> common law courts mete out justice. Subject for another day.

i feel democracy, despite it's imperfections, limitations, and corruptions
is ok for the masses, most of them still need a big brother, but we need
more choices and options for those ready to move on....i think common law
has many merits, just remember it originated at the time of the magna carta
in england as a means to evolve democratic institutions into being, because
many were tired of corrupt dictatorships and monarchies...now is time to
move on from democracy to consensus, there is still too much corruption, tho
democracy was a major step forward at that time...
> 
> Sorry but I have to get off where you state the UN and NATO are successful
> examples of consensus. HUH?? They're corporate, US male dominated war
> machines and little else.  Sure we want peace, cooperation, and all the
> rest. But dumb ideas just keep getting in the way, don't they. I'm sure
> you're set in your ways so I won't try to clarify anymore.

all political systems including consensus can be and are corrupt, even
common law concepts can be corrupted....but, imh-bs consensus is the least
corrupt and can be evolved to be even less corrupt...the united nations made
a strong voice against the usa entering iraq, they have their own corrupt
system to refine, but despite the fact that the usa ignored the united
nations and went ahead anyway, thank god germany and france did not agree,
and showed the world that might does not always make right and took a
stand...and as a result the largest peace demonstration in the world took
place just before iraq war....cites all over the world were marching on the
streets....tho unsuccessful in stoping the war, imh-bs they were successful
in showing us the potential if we keep refining the systems or
processes....you seem to have a very pessimistic approach to life.....aloha,

forest
[email protected]
http://www.lavazone2.com/forest/


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