Re: Consensus/ was Another Bush Crime against humanity and Gaia

on 1/30/05 3:43 AM, Globalcircle at [email protected] wrote:

> 
> Whether it suits me or not is beside the point. In any system, consensus or
> otherwise, we can't all have it our way all the time.

if our way is truly a fair way, we can have it our way in consensus in
groups of twelve or less speakers or members....we simply need to be patient
and state our case....if it is not fair, then we need to be willing to
compromise...if we have an open fair mind, then in the end it will still be
our way, because we voted to agree with it, not have it pushed on us by
majority rule....

>My preference is for
> local or regional governance that has minimal intrusion on my life and the
> lives of others -- few rules and demands, leaving people to live as they
> like so long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.

sure, we all want that, tho easier said than done....and rather than rules i
prefer the term agreements in the consensus paradigm...rules imply there is
a minority who don't agree, while agreements imply we all agreed before
taking action or implementing new ideas/ideals....

> Want to smoke
> dope? Fine, but not in my house. Want to grow your own vegetables and
> fruit? Fine, but you can't make everybody else do the same. You can help
> friends and neighbors but they can't just take anything they want from you,
> or vice versa. In that system, most people can have most things their way,
> free of rules, so long as they don't insist on making rules for other
> people.

the trouble is that what me neighbor does does affect me more and more every
day with more and more people living on the planet closer and closer
together....individuals pollution, often they feel justified about cause
they do not see the whole picture clearly, spills over onto their neighbors
in very subtle yet real ways....i feel it better to reach agreements with
neighbors rather than have every man for himself attitude....
> 
> What about the environment, you say. Well, under consensus or so-called
> democracy, people can ruin the environment and get by with it. All it takes
> is a vote or agreement.

in consensus it takes unanimous agreement, if you don't like the agreement
or think it is not fair, you have the right to not pass or hold up that
agreement and/or propose what you feel is a more fair one....

> There's simply no guarantee that consensus will
> produce results that are morally right or sustainable. People are human and
> make mistakes.

well, making consensus agreements does not have to be percieved as something
set in stone....if a group unanimously agrees on something and later it
proves to be less than ideal, the same group can consensusly agree to refine
it to something better....that can happen endlessly or until no one feels
the need any more for change on that particular issue....

>  A local industry can pollute the air and ground water if
> most everybody goes along with it for reasons of their own.

that is majority rule, with consensus in small neighborhood councils of
twelve or less, where you are a member, if you don't like the plan you can
stop it by not agreeing or propose a more ideal one....

> But if you
> have a minimalist governance under common law you can have a semblance of
> real law and order and sue such an industry to stop and remediate, or never
> start polluting.

i agree, tho easier said than done, without a consensus support group....
> 
> The rule of thumb is, your rights end where my nose begins, and vice versa.
> But too many people have traded freedom for false security to even
> comprehend the simplicity and practicality of minimalism in government.
> Both consensus and democracy can easily be as oppressive as any fascism or
> police state.  Minimalism opposes that.

imh-bs it seems you do not fully understand the many varieties of consensus
to choose from, but rather seem to put it in similar category as democracy,
which is far from the truth...minimalist concepts are ok, assuming people
have a high degree of consciousness and/or respect for each other and are
not too polluting or corrupt themselves, but most libertarians i meet are
alchoholic angry macho dudes, who have high ideals, while still living
within the corrupt system they put down....the ole, "actions speak louder
than words" syndrome....

forest
[email protected]
http://www.lavazone2.com/forest/


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