Re: consensus child care"??? / wasAnother Bush Crime against humanity and Gaia

Dude (don't know your name)

Somehow I got on this list and have been skimming through the avalanche 
of messages saving the interesting ones, particularly those regarding 
consensus.  When I read yours it struck me very much like something I 
would say so I just had to drop you a message.

About three years ago my wife and I purchased some property with three 
other families on the Island where we live with the idea of doing an 
alternative minded development, emphasizing open space, modest 
structures, sustain ability, etc.  All lofty stuff.  In order to get a 
group together for this purpose we tapped into the local established and 
successful cohousing community.  Individuals from that group supported 
us and a couple actually bought in to the property.  We ended up 
dividing into building sites, retaining a fair amount of open space for 
organic gardening, using our state's condominium law to create building 
sites as units, establish rules, etc.  It's still a work in progress but 
we have worked through some difficult issues.  One of the most difficult 
had to do with decision making and the idea of consensus.

The Cohousing folks, and one of our unit owners, have kind of a 
religious attitude towards consensus..  I tend to come from a different 
direction.  Pure consensus, as I understand it, allows for group members 
to block decisions when they feel it important to do so.  I do not like 
the idea of one person holding up decisions.  Seems to me it gives too 
much power to individuals.  The response I get to this is that I just 
haven't seen the light and don't really understand what consensus is: I 
just haven't seen the light yet; haven't evolved spiritually enough to 
see clearly.  It's very frustrating because I do feel like I understand 
what it's all about and still have a problem with one person holding the 
veto power over an entire group, in those "once in a life time 
situations".  The problem is that some people can be prone to quite a 
few :once in a lifetime situations" that require them to block 
decisions.  These the same ones who find it difficult to explain their 
ideas in a manner which is compelling to the rest of the group and who 
need their hands held during every difficult decision process.

Ironically, while making the transition from an LLC, which purchased our 
property, to a Condominium, we were legally bound to make decisions by 
consensus.  I used this to block adoption of the pure form of consensus 
into our new bylaws.  Somewhat ironic, but hey, I felt very strongly 
about it.  I had no problem blocking perpetual consensus by using 
temporary consensus.  In all truth, I wasn't the only one in our group 
who had a problem with pure consensus.  Just the one who made it clear I 
wouldn't accept it a a permanent fixture under any circumstance.  What 
this eventually led to was a modified consensus process.  Our bylaws 
provide for a majority vote over ride after a proscribed time period of 
hand holding and discussion.  It's sort of a compromise but does 
eliminate the possibility of someone creating a problem and then 
protecting themselves by blocking decisions intended to address that 
problem.

It's always interesting to me how the mind of the true believer 
functions.  If you don't agree with them you then represent a lesser 
form of what is true and righteous: you then reflect imperfection by 
virtue of your refusal to accept their truth as your personal savior. 
 This is fucking bull shit, arrogant, and narrow minded.  Many of these 
types of folks are wonderful people but I believe they have chosen to 
shut down a part of their mind in order to take refuge from the 
complexity of life.

Anyway, perhaps I will check out what you are up to through the links 
you provided.

Regards,  Ron Peltier

Globalcircle wrote:

>I certainly agree there is too much eco-destructive energies now on earth.
>But no sir, it's not my fault nobody accepts and lives in egalitarian
>consensus-organized communities. It's just a bad idea. Cooperation, yes,
>community, yes. Those are traditional values civilized societies have
>always believe in. But individual freedom and family independence within
>cooperating communities is what people want and have always wanted, not
>being in some suffocating arrangement where they have to get a committee's
>permission (excuse me, I mean consensus) to piss off the front porch. 
>
>And no, just because I say obsession with consensus is going nowhere
>doesn't mean I'm pessimistic about life. I constantly promote the Local
>Food movement, community self sufficiency, sustainable living, the Old
>Ways, and spiritual connection to the land. It's all over my websites and
>my own lists I run.  And I actually live what I promote. 
>
>Sorry but "responsible consensus child care"? (from your website)  Are you
>serious? Must not have any of your own. "Decisions and actions based on
>unanimous agreement"?  Then you won't ever get anything done.  Have you
>ever picked up a shovel?
>
>Then your site says "We are looking to attract and create a small core
>group of stable, self-reliant, charismatic, grounded, country farmer style
>spiritual pioneers as a supportive role model or example that grows and
>divides like a cell into supportive splinter pods or families. Our simple
>but fair and powerful unique council format guarantees freedom from
>control, co-dependency, and domination for all those ready and responsible
>enough to get seriously involved."
>
>Forest, I'm not making fun of your ideals. You don't even HAVE a consensus
>community, and you  simply won't get people to do things your way. You need
>some experience living before you tell everybody else the right way to
>live. 
>
>paul [email protected]
>http://largocreekfarms.com
>http://medicinehill.net
>
>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
>On 1/31/2005 at 8:28 AM forest wrote:
>
>  
>
>>on 1/29/05 6:55 PM, Globalcircle at [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Forest, I really don't want to sound quarrelsome, because I can support
>>>some of your vision. I have to say that consensus organized non-profit
>>>      
>>>
>>land
>>    
>>
>>>trust is a strange bird that just can't fly.
>>>      
>>>
>>i beg to differ, certainly if one is not interested or passionate about
>>wanting to evolve and have deeper spiritual connections with nature and
>>each
>>other, and continue to refine what we don't like about a new system, then
>>sure what you say may be true for much of the mass consciousness...but if
>>eco-balance is something we are truly passionate about, i see no other
>>system that is more likely to create that balance....but we are all ready
>>for change and/or evolution at our own rates and times, so sure it is good
>>to have many political systems avialable so we can choose....however
>>    
>>
>imh-bs
>  
>
>>there is too much eco-destructive energies now on earth to ignore the one
>>most likely to bring them in balance....
>>
>>    
>>
>>>We've heard endless plans for
>>>egalitarian consensus-organized communities for decades.
>>>      
>>>
>>as i said, it is a paradigm shift waiting to happen, with little or no
>>support, and with attitudes like yours, it will never happen for some, but
>>for others it is happening now.....i bet democracy was a fantasy to many
>>before it ever happened to...or like my dad who says wars will always
>>happen, they will never have peace on earth...i don't believe things just
>>cause the masses do and don't act on change or evolution....i like to be
>>    
>>
>on
>  
>
>>the cutting edge of things, to each his/her own i suppose....i suspect all
>>positive growth on earth is the result of a few stubborn idealists that
>>    
>>
>had
>  
>
>>the passion and spirit to keep the faith when others put them down or did
>>not believe.....but the eco-destruction clock is ticking....
>>
>>    
>>
>>> You might
>>>consider why they all fail at being true consensus, or just never get
>>>      
>>>
>off
>  
>
>>>the ground 99 times out of a hundred.
>>>      
>>>
>>i do consider that very much for many years, and me own take on it is
>>    
>>
>cause
>  
>
>>there are so many skeptics like you, and we are all programmed in society
>>to
>>compete with each other in the old hierarchical traditions, rather than
>>make
>>more efforts to cooperate....plus it is scarey and humbling too much for
>>some because of their ego-centered co-dependant habits in communications
>>and
>>politics.....
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I don't care if somebody claims a
>>>success at that; they're fudging the truth about how they actually work.
>>>All projects and organizations have some form of leadership.
>>>      
>>>
>>well, i can see you are not too intersted....imh-bs the most ideal
>>consensus
>>council would have members who all have leadership skills, but prefer to
>>    
>>
>go
>  
>
>>beyond the leader/follower polarity mindset and explore joining with other
>>leader types in some expanded, more effective, spiritual group mind
>>experience, that is more than the sum of it's parts...not for everyone for
>>sure at this time in his-story....but imh-bs the only way to put in check
>>the eco-destructive energies on the planet in time to save it....the clock
>>is ticking, we can put our head in the sand and ignore it and go back to
>>"business and politics as usual" or we can get serious and see/sense that
>>technology and monopoly capitalism, and democracy is quickly evolving the
>>world and political structures to our detriment....the exponential growth
>>of
>>technology and capitalism needs to be equaled by exponential growth in
>>evolving political structures imh-bs....
>>    
>>
>>>>once we create more examples and show the masses how
>>>>happy, spiritual, and comfortable we can be, i suspect many others will
>>>>join
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Must respectfully point out that you can't change human nature.
>>>      
>>>
>>huWoMan nature has slowly been changing and evolving for millenia....it is
>>so slow it appears to some to not be changing at all, but i say there are
>>more huWoMan rights and consciousness than ever before in his-story
>>globally
>>despite the fact that the usa is falling behind it seems....technology is
>>moving/changing so fast, that imh-bs political systems need to do the same
>>If people wish to survive....your attitude sounds very hopeless to me, i
>>cannot accept that, i am eternal optimist, still knowing it may not happen
>>in time, i still remain passionate and hopeful.....
>>
>>    
>>
>>>won't accept some form of community that you think right for them, then
>>>      
>>>
>>it
>>    
>>
>>>means it is NOT right for them.
>>>      
>>>
>>not now perhaps, most are slow to change, most quit after adolescence.....
>>but if more and more evolved/improved examples happen around those types
>>    
>>
>of
>  
>
>>folks, eventually they or their children may eventually see the value in
>>health, spirit, happiness in evolving communication and decision making
>>systems....
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Now if you really want a more sustainable
>>>society, you need to focus on some kind of social organization people
>>>      
>>>
>can
>  
>
>>>live with. You can't say, ok I want a more sustainable society, but I
>>>      
>>>
>>want
>>    
>>
>>>it MY way. 
>>>      
>>>
>>consensus is just the opposite of "my way", it is "our way"....hierarchies
>>say it is the way of the most pushy, interuptive, dominant
>>    
>>
>one/ones....that
>  
>
>>is why we are in the mess we are in today with environment and our sick
>>societies....america is falling behind in consciousness imh-bs because of
>>folks who think like you....i do not see peace on earth or a clean
>>environment without consensus political structures being the norm....
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I don't see the male dominance as the end-all root cause of all evil. 
>>>      
>>>
>>Male
>>    
>>
>>>dominance is natural in many species for biological survival. It does
>>>      
>>>
>not
>  
>
>>>have to mean abusive, acquisitive, or combative.  Having been around the
>>>block myself, I'm convinced that women hold as much or more power than
>>>      
>>>
>>men
>>    
>>
>>>in this world because they have something men want -- obviously. You
>>>      
>>>
>>should
>>    
>>
>>>know that.
>>>      
>>>
>>male dominance has an important place in nature in animal
>>    
>>
>societies....just
>  
>
>>there are so many human animals now out there in the world, we need to
>>refine and evolve better systems of politics in order to survive, plus i
>>want more than an animal pecking order consciousness.....ya, now since
>>women's lib is more the norm, we have women imitating men in the pecking
>>order for jobs and politics as usual, not ideal imh-bs....now we have male
>>and female dominance....but women and men imh-bs should listen more to
>>intuition in the spirit of left right brain balance for most ideal systems
>>to develop....  
>>    
>>
>>>I don't see democracy as the best form of government. Why? Because as
>>>      
>>>
>the
>  
>
>>>founding father said, that government governs best that governs least.
>>>Maximize freedom. Just because some idiot majority passes a law doesn't
>>>make it right or just, now does it?  But it's democracy, huh.  No, let
>>>common law courts mete out justice. Subject for another day.
>>>      
>>>
>>i feel democracy, despite it's imperfections, limitations, and corruptions
>>is ok for the masses, most of them still need a big brother, but we need
>>more choices and options for those ready to move on....i think common law
>>has many merits, just remember it originated at the time of the magna
>>    
>>
>carta
>  
>
>>in england as a means to evolve democratic institutions into being,
>>    
>>
>because
>  
>
>>many were tired of corrupt dictatorships and monarchies...now is time to
>>move on from democracy to consensus, there is still too much corruption,
>>tho
>>democracy was a major step forward at that time...
>>    
>>
>>>Sorry but I have to get off where you state the UN and NATO are
>>>      
>>>
>>successful
>>    
>>
>>>examples of consensus. HUH?? They're corporate, US male dominated war
>>>machines and little else.  Sure we want peace, cooperation, and all the
>>>rest. But dumb ideas just keep getting in the way, don't they. I'm sure
>>>you're set in your ways so I won't try to clarify anymore.
>>>      
>>>
>>all political systems including consensus can be and are corrupt, even
>>common law concepts can be corrupted....but, imh-bs consensus is the least
>>corrupt and can be evolved to be even less corrupt...the united nations
>>made
>>a strong voice against the usa entering iraq, they have their own corrupt
>>system to refine, but despite the fact that the usa ignored the united
>>nations and went ahead anyway, thank god germany and france did not agree,
>>and showed the world that might does not always make right and took a
>>stand...and as a result the largest peace demonstration in the world took
>>place just before iraq war....cites all over the world were marching on
>>    
>>
>the
>  
>
>>streets....tho unsuccessful in stoping the war, imh-bs they were
>>    
>>
>successful
>  
>
>>in showing us the potential if we keep refining the systems or
>>processes....you seem to have a very pessimistic approach to
>>life.....aloha,
>>
>>forest
>>[email protected]
>>http://www.lavazone2.com/forest/
>>
>>
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