Re: Use of <q> within <rs>
Lou Burnard <[email protected]>
| Newsgroups | gmane.text.tei.general |
|---|---|
| Message-ID | <[email protected]> |
Would <soCalled> or <mentioned> not be more suitable for these examples? On 30/10/16 18:08, Robin Seguy wrote: > Hi James and list, > > Examples of constructions such as: > > ce roi qu'on appelait par dérision le roi de Bourges > > or: > > ce héros qu'Homère qualifie d'amphidexios > > (Definite description/periphrasis including a more or less formal > quote, which should, I believe, be encoded respectively: <rs>ce roi > qu'on appelait par dérision <q>le roi de Bourges</q></rs>, and <rs>ce > héros qu'Homère qualifie d'<quote>amphidexios</quote></rs>) > > are all over the place. > > It seems to me (especially since I deal with texts that are, so to > speak, entirely made of quotations), that one of the blind spots of > the TEI treatment of intertextuality is to assign it a specific level, > whereas reported speech, fictional or not, can extend from entire > volumes (from Robinson Crusoe to Portnoy's Complaint) to smallish > units like parts of names. > > > Robin > > > > Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 30, 2016, at 13:58, Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> Hi James-- In Scott's first example, it looked like a good case for >> <quote>, as in a quote from an external source as I imagine this is. >> So perhaps we'd want to code it thus, if it's a quote from the >> surveyor or something: >> >> <rs type="findspot">said to have been found <quote>5 km from centre >> [of <placeName>Bath</placeName>], near a quarry near a >> villa</quote></rs> >> >> That's the use that looks odd to us because it's longer than the >> usual way we use <rs>. Still, it seems plausible to me for an >> archaeology project to have longer referring strings tied to >> locational specs. In this example, I'd probably want to nest the <rs> >> inside the <q>, or rather, in this case, I think, a <quote> element. >> >> But in Scott's second example, and in the example Lou provided, these >> seem to be a more typical case, and one I think I've seen before. And >> here, sure, if the <q> isn't explicitly pointing to an outside >> source, it would just be <q>: >> >> <rs type="findspot">in excavation, re-used in a fourth-century >> <q>chalet</q></rs> >> >> If this whole string refers to the location of a findspot, it seems >> to make sense inside the <rs>, though I wonder if it should surround >> just: >> <rs>fourth-century <q>chalet</q></rs>. Still, we see the same >> problem: These uses of <q> and <quote> are neither one of them >> permitted inside of <rs>, and that's the issue worth discussing here. >> I've opened a ticket on GitHub requesting discussion--do you see any >> issues with nesting q or quote inside rs? >> >> Elisa >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 1:42 PM, James Cummings >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Hi Elisa (and others) >> >> I think you would mean <q> there instead of <quote> with the >> former meaning that it is in quotation marks, the latter really >> means that it is a quotation ascribed to an external agency. >> >> Like Lou I've always understood <rs> as a phrase more directly >> referencing a named entity. It is a name or identifying phrase >> that is not a proper noun (for which they should use <name>) like >> 'my lovely wife', 'her', 'the young gentleman'. >> >> Since I suspect this is an EpiDoc usage perhaps someone who knows >> that TEI subset well can comment on what their recommended usage is. >> >> James >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >> >> >> On 30 Oct 2016 5:05 p.m., Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Lou: I was thinking that the use of rs looked a little long >> here, too, but might make sense in the project. But <rs> with >> an @type set to "findspot" seems a lot more precise than to >> use an <ab> (anonymous block, or "any arbitrary >> component-level unit of text"). I can see how an archaeology >> project would want to look at referring strings of text >> associated with location. >> >> But even if rs is usually something of a shorter phrase, why >> shouldn't it contain quoted material? So, for example, what >> about: >> >> <rs>The town <quote>formerly known as Princeton</quote></rs>? >> >> We can't simultaneously indicated quotation from another >> source, or the presence of quotation marks (with <q>) in >> this. Come to think of it, one of my student project-teams >> ran into this problem last year in coding a series of >> newspaper articles with quoted dialogue. >> >> Elisa >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Lou Burnard >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> I think this is quite a strange use of <rs> : the phrases >> you quote are some way away from things like "the >> village" or "over there" or even "The town formerly known >> as Princeton", in that though they do refer to a >> location, they don't really name it. So (in the absence >> of a specific <findspot> element) I think I'd argue for >> using an <ab> here, with an appropriate type i.e. <ab >> type="findspot">. In which case <q> and indeed <rs> would >> all be unequivocally available. >> >> >> >> >> On 30/10/16 16:47, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote: >> >> Hello, Scott-- >> I was a little surprised to find that <rs> couldn't >> contain either a <q> or (perhaps more precisely here) >> a <quote> element, but that's so. I imagine this is >> because <rs> is thought to be sitting below the level >> of the quotation marks. As defined in Chapter 3 of >> the Guidelines, rs (referring string) is a "a phrase >> which refers to some person, place, object, etc." So >> the question is, are your examples of <rs> holding a >> little too much, and should they be sitting inside >> the <q> elements? In your first example, maybe, but >> in your second example, clearly not--we'd be losing >> referential information about your findspot if we >> wrapped only chalet in the rs. >> >> This is perhaps a good opportunity for a ticket to >> permit <q> and <quote> inside <rs>. What do others >> think? I'm happy to take this to my colleagues on >> Council. >> >> Best, >> Elisa >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Scott Vanderbilt >> (TEI-L) <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Is there any particular reason why <q> is not >> permitted within <rs>? >> >> I am attempting to mark-up archaeological >> findspots that occasionally quote from another >> text, e.g.: >> >> <rs type="findspot">said to have been found >> <q>5 km from centre >> [of <placeName>Bath</placeName>], near a >> quarry near a villa</q></rs> >> >> and >> >> <rs type="findspot">in excavation, re-used in >> a fourth-century >> <q>chalet</q></rs> >> >> However, <rs> does not permit such usage of <q> >> (or <quote> for that matter), notwithstanding its >> being defined as "a _general purpose_ name or >> referring string". >> >> Is there some other sanctioned method of >> accomplishing my goal of distinguishing the >> quoted text from the passages within which they >> appear? >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD >> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate >> Professor of English >> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities >> Division >> 150 Finoli Drive >> Greensburg, PA 15601 USA >> E-mail: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Development site: http://newtfire.org >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewtfire.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7Cebb8%40PITT.EDU%7C0bc162d32e3d49bfe22e08d400ec795d%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1&sdata=b3EWL3Vc26d%2BAvLvHFz4e3uCF5hIjKsKZ9cKjtzfWcs%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD >> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor >> of English >> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division >> 150 Finoli Drive >> Greensburg, PA 15601 USA >> E-mail: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Development site: http://newtfire.org >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewtfire.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7Cebb8%40PITT.EDU%7C0bc162d32e3d49bfe22e08d400ec795d%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1&sdata=b3EWL3Vc26d%2BAvLvHFz4e3uCF5hIjKsKZ9cKjtzfWcs%3D&reserved=0> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD >> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English >> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division >> 150 Finoli Drive >> Greensburg, PA 15601 USA >> E-mail: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Development site: http://newtfire.org <http://newtfire.org/>