Re: Use of <q> within <rs>

I can see how, in the first case, <soCalled> makes sense — but isn't it in
many cases just a way to avoid giving a definite answer to the question of
the source of the quotation? (presumably the pro-Burgundian party was more
prone to use a derisive epithet); in cases where a source is ascertained,
like the second one, I can't see what necessarily makes it a metalinguistic
statement. The epithet may be a misguiding case, but, in contrast, with
greater syntactic integration:

"[...] la loi d'universelle finalité posée par Celui, dont Dante écrit, en
conclusion de son poème, que, par les sollicitations de son amour, il
attire à Lui le soleil, moteur de notre globe, et les autres étoiles jetées
par Lui dans l'espace."

"[...] the law of universal finality laid down by Him of Whom Dante writes
at the conclusion of his poem :
But yet the will rolled onward, like a wheel In even motion, by Love
impelled, That moves the sun in heaven and all the stars."

Deciding that it is not a bona fides quotation seems to me to distort the
notion of quotation itself.




On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Lou Burnard <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Would <soCalled> or <mentioned> not be more suitable for these examples?
>
>
> On 30/10/16 18:08, Robin Seguy wrote:
>
> Hi James and list,
>
> Examples of constructions such as:
>
> ce roi qu'on appelait par dérision le roi de Bourges
>
> or:
>
> ce héros qu'Homère qualifie d'amphidexios
>
> (Definite description/periphrasis including a more or less formal quote,
> which should, I believe, be encoded respectively: <rs>ce roi qu'on
> appelait par dérision <q>le roi de Bourges</q></rs>, and <rs>ce héros
> qu'Homère qualifie d'<quote>amphidexios</quote></rs>)
>
> are all over the place.
>
> It seems to me (especially since I deal with texts that are, so to speak,
> entirely made of quotations), that one of the blind spots of the TEI
> treatment of intertextuality is to assign it a specific level, whereas
> reported speech, fictional or not, can extend from entire volumes (from
> Robinson Crusoe to Portnoy's Complaint) to smallish units like parts of
> names.
>
>
> Robin
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 30, 2016, at 13:58, Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[email protected]
> <[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> Hi James-- In Scott's first example, it looked like a good case for
> <quote>, as in a quote from an external source as I imagine this is. So
> perhaps we'd want to code it thus, if it's a quote from the surveyor or
> something:
>
>  <rs type="findspot">said to have been found <quote>5 km from centre
>    [of <placeName>Bath</placeName>], near a quarry near a
> villa</quote></rs>
>
> That's the use that looks odd to us because it's longer than the usual way
> we use <rs>. Still, it seems plausible to me for an archaeology project to
> have longer referring strings tied to locational specs. In this example,
> I'd probably want to nest the <rs> inside the <q>, or rather, in this case,
> I think, a <quote> element.
>
> But in Scott's second example, and in the example Lou provided, these seem
> to be a more typical case, and one I think I've seen before. And here,
> sure, if the <q> isn't explicitly pointing to an outside source, it would
> just be <q>:
>
>  <rs type="findspot">in excavation, re-used in a fourth-century
>    <q>chalet</q></rs>
>
> If this whole string refers to the location of a findspot, it seems to
> make sense inside the <rs>, though I wonder if it should surround just:
>  <rs>fourth-century <q>chalet</q></rs>. Still, we see the same problem:
> These uses of <q> and <quote> are neither one of them permitted inside of
> <rs>, and that's the issue worth discussing here. I've opened a ticket on
> GitHub requesting discussion--do you see any issues with nesting q or quote
> inside rs?
>
> Elisa
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 1:42 PM, James Cummings <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Elisa (and others)
>>
>> I think you would mean <q> there instead of <quote> with the former
>> meaning that it is in quotation marks, the latter really means that it is a
>> quotation ascribed to an external agency.
>>
>> Like Lou I've always understood <rs> as a phrase more directly
>> referencing a named entity. It is a name or identifying phrase that is not
>> a proper noun (for which they should use <name>) like 'my lovely wife',
>> 'her', 'the young gentleman'.
>>
>> Since I suspect this is an EpiDoc usage perhaps someone who knows that
>> TEI subset well can comment on what their recommended usage is.
>>
>> James
>>
>> --
>> Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford
>>
>> On 30 Oct 2016 5:05 p.m., Elisa Beshero-Bondar <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Lou: I was thinking that the use of rs looked a little long here, too,
>> but might make sense in the project. But <rs> with an @type set to
>> "findspot" seems a lot more precise than to use an <ab> (anonymous block,
>> or "any arbitrary component-level unit of text"). I can see how an
>> archaeology project would want to look at referring strings of text
>> associated with location.
>>
>> But even if rs is usually something of a shorter phrase, why shouldn't it
>> contain quoted material? So, for example, what about:
>>
>> <rs>The town <quote>formerly known as Princeton</quote></rs>?
>>
>> We can't simultaneously indicated quotation from another source, or the
>> presence of quotation marks (with <q>) in this. Come to think of it, one of
>> my student project-teams ran into this problem last year in coding a series
>> of newspaper articles with quoted dialogue.
>>
>> Elisa
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Lou Burnard <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I think this is quite a strange use of <rs> : the phrases you quote are
>> some way away from things like "the village" or "over there" or even "The
>> town formerly known as Princeton", in that though they do refer to a
>> location, they don't really name it. So (in the absence of a specific
>> <findspot> element) I think I'd argue for using an <ab> here, with an
>> appropriate type i.e. <ab type="findspot">. In which case <q> and indeed
>> <rs> would all be unequivocally available.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On 30/10/16 16:47, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote:
>>
>> Hello, Scott--
>> I was a little surprised to find that <rs> couldn't contain either a <q>
>> or (perhaps more precisely here) a <quote> element, but that's so. I
>> imagine this is because <rs> is thought to be sitting below the level of
>> the quotation marks. As defined in Chapter 3 of the Guidelines, rs
>> (referring string) is a "a phrase which refers to some person, place,
>> object, etc." So the question is, are your examples of <rs> holding a
>> little too much, and should they be sitting inside the <q> elements? In
>> your first example, maybe, but in your second example, clearly not--we'd be
>> losing referential information about your findspot if we wrapped only
>> chalet in the rs.
>>
>> This is perhaps a good opportunity for a ticket to permit <q> and <quote>
>> inside <rs>. What do others think? I'm happy to take this to my colleagues
>> on Council.
>>
>> Best,
>> Elisa
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Scott Vanderbilt (TEI-L) <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Is there any particular reason why <q> is not permitted within <rs>?
>>
>> I am attempting to mark-up archaeological findspots that occasionally
>> quote from another text, e.g.:
>>
>>    <rs type="findspot">said to have been found <q>5 km from centre
>>    [of <placeName>Bath</placeName>], near a quarry near a villa</q></rs>
>>
>> and
>>
>>    <rs type="findspot">in excavation, re-used in a fourth-century
>>    <q>chalet</q></rs>
>>
>> However, <rs> does not permit such usage of <q> (or <quote> for that
>> matter), notwithstanding its being defined as "a _general purpose_ name or
>> referring string".
>>
>> Is there some other sanctioned method of accomplishing my goal of
>> distinguishing the quoted text from the passages within which they appear?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
>> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
>> 150 Finoli Drive
>> Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
>> E-mail: [email protected] <[email protected]>
>> Development site: http://newtfire.org
>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewtfire.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7Cebb8%40PITT.EDU%7C0bc162d32e3d49bfe22e08d400ec795d%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1&sdata=b3EWL3Vc26d%2BAvLvHFz4e3uCF5hIjKsKZ9cKjtzfWcs%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
>> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
>> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
>> 150 Finoli Drive
>> Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
>> E-mail: [email protected] <[email protected]>
>> Development site: http://newtfire.org
>> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewtfire.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7Cebb8%40PITT.EDU%7C0bc162d32e3d49bfe22e08d400ec795d%7C9ef9f489e0a04eeb87cc3a526112fd0d%7C1&sdata=b3EWL3Vc26d%2BAvLvHFz4e3uCF5hIjKsKZ9cKjtzfWcs%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD
> Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English
> University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division
> 150 Finoli Drive
> Greensburg, PA  15601  USA
> E-mail: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> Development site: http://newtfire.org
>
>
>